Ep 3: Compersion and Jealousy (LIVE)

Illustration of a man and woman with flowers instead of heads — Art by @martina.francone

What is compersion? Why doesn't spellcheck detect it as a real word?

Well, It's the feeling of joy that one gets when watching someone else experience joy.
Effy draws out stories of how people moved from established rules that protected them, to establishing freedom that liberated them in the spirit of joy and compersion from a diverse set of Foxes on this live panel.

To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla on Instagram.

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TRANSCRIPT:
Effy

My name is Effy Blue. And this is the Curious Fox podcast. Curious Fox is a community for those who challenge the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. Every month, we pick a theme anchored in these subjects. I invite a diverse set of panelists and we bravely explore the theme through personal stories. This month, we decided to tackle the complex feeling of compassion. Compassion is a term used by those who are practicing non monogamy to describe the feeling of joy when the partner is enjoying another connection, interaction or relationship with someone else. Although it's said the concept of compassion was originally coined by the Charis the commune in San Francisco in the 50s. The feeling itself is as old as the humankind. If this contemporary iteration, it may seem like an impossible feeling for some people feeling joy because your partner is having an intense connection with someone else. Crazy, right? Well, maybe not as crazy as you think. Firstly, the feeling itself is not isolated non monogamy, or romantic relationships. We have all felt that burst of joy for a friend who finally got their dream job, or a family member looking radiant on their wedding day. We know what that feels like. The question is, can it be achieved in situations where jealousy may arise? Can it really be a viable option then? In preparation for this month's panel, I took a deep dive into this elusive yet universal feeling when what I found was thoroughly surprising. The idea of pure joy unadulterated by self interest is not something non monogamous people invented. It's in fact ancient. It's one of the Four Virtues of Buddhism, also known as the four immeasurables. In Sanskrit, it's called mudita. This was a huge discovery for me. The English translation of the Sanskrit word provided me with the most clarity on this virtue, sympathetic joy. In both Buddhism and its more contemporary iteration, compassion is often mentioned as the opposite of jealousy. It's also regarded as the most difficult virtue to cultivate. And this was not lost on LT. One of our panelists who explains despite teaching classes on compassion, he has yet to get his captain conversion badge. Calculating this feeling also has enormous power. As you'll hear from Eric, another panelist this month, He attributes his closeness with his partner of seven years and now wife to actively developing this feeling. As usual, the conversation took natural talent and expanded into other areas, only to find its way back to this beautiful feeling that makes my heart burst with joy. Upon a question from one of the boxes, the panelists and I got to reminisce our favorite compulsive moments, with Clara sharing a heartwarming story of being on the receiving end of conversion. Curious Fox socials are not and will never be the final word on any topic. We solely aim to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind. And we'll look forward to your feedback. Enjoy the episode.

Good evening, thank you for coming. I want to pass it, pass the mic on to my collaborator Jackie at the back and she has some few things to CTN Hi.

Jacqueline

Hi, and welcome particularly to the folks who are new and the folks who continue to join us. We are curious Fox there's a number of things that we do here. So you're at a curious Fox social, the goal is that you have opportunities to socialize with each other and meet each other before and after that we have a particular topic that you're gonna hear on, there's gonna be opportunities for you to ask questions. We also do curious Fox presents where we have an educator or a specialist come in and they do a workshop on a particular topic and so we're going to be doing something on the 21st on kink one on one. So in case folks are interested in learning all things kink and asking some questions and exploring that then join us on the 21st of every month we have a different theme so this month the theme was about being open next month is the theme about and giving and then next month is love. We also have curious Fox A socials. So we have little parties that go on and social events. And then soirees, and then we have consider this, consider this as an annual conference that we do. It's like TED Talk, where we have different specialists come from around the country, share on different topics. And we ask you just to consider those things and think through those things. So if you're interested in those things, if those things sounded new to you, then we welcome you to follow us on Instagram, or on Facebook. And we are curious foxes. And you'll find us there. And the other thing that I want to share is we are now on Patreon. So Patreon is a fundraising website. Everything that we do here we do out of love, and we do from grassroots. And so we asked the community to continue to support us in this work so that we can do even more events and have more things for you. So if you want to join for every $5 you give, you get to get some cool stuff, you get to ask me questions, and she does live videos where she answers your specific questions. You can give $10 $20 and for each month that you give, you get tote bags and things you get free tickets, all sorts of cool stuff. So you you give and you get. But feel free to ask me questions, at any point, ask me questions. And we are just thrilled that you're here. So thank you.

Effy

Starting with the theme, this month, we're exploring conversion conversion is essentially the feeling that you get for somebody else's joy that has nothing to do with you. Right. So it is actually something that we do all experience. Imagine, a good friend tells you they've got a job over their lifetime the job that they want, and you feel happy for them, right? That feeling Compersion is kind of what people call that feeling in romantic relationships in open romantic relationships. So it kind of applies to if your partner, for example, goes out on a date, and they come back and they're like, Oh, my God, I had the best date ever. And, you know, we did all these things. And it was so excited in though in that moment, can you get in that space of I am happy for them for the experience that they've had, which has nothing to do with you, right? So when I, um, I did an event on Compersion before and when I did, I sort of went into my usual nerdy exploration mode. And one of the things that I found out, which was huge for me is it's not a new idea. And it is not just for polyamory or an open relationship. It's actually an ancient idea. It shows up in Buddhism. The Sanskrit word for it is mudita is one of the four virtues that Buddha talks about. And the English translation is sympathetic joy, right? Which makes so much sense, right? It's not empathetic joy you're not there with them is sympathetic joy, you appreciate the joy that they have. And this is also honored in Buddhism is one of those being the hardest, the hardest virtue, to culture to cultivate. So we do understand that it's not something that comes easily right. There are mudita meditations, that meditation is dedicated to helping people cultivate this feeling. And this kind of tie was really interesting for me that it is it is this ancient virtue, it's ancient teaching a way of being that we, that we know apply to these open relationships. And then, so that's kind of what we're going to explore here today. The other thing that people talk about conversion, is this being almost opposite of jealousy. I don't necessarily, personally I don't necessarily agree on that. But I do think that it does is gives you a reflection to be on the other side, I do think actually, you can feel we'll talk about this a little bit about like jealousy and conversion at the same time. What I think it does do is it kind of gives you a counterbalance, it gives you an opportunity to be like, Oh, I can choose to be in this space, or I can choose to be this other space that is available. Sometimes we just don't know that space is available. For me. That's how it shows up for me. But we'll get into all that. And but before that, I want to introduce my I want my panel to introduce themselves to you. We'll start from my right.

Eric

Hello, everyone. I'm Eric. As you may have heard, I have been practicing Polly for seven years or so. sort of discovered it on my own. I guess I was I call it like New York City OKCupid window shopping like I think a lot of people do. And I kind of I was doing that for a while and it felt like eventually it started to feel like I was lying to everyone that I was seeing. Even if I wasn't actually lying. It was How was your week? It was fine. That's not the answer. You know, the answer is I went to the beach with Bree and I went to see a movie with Casey like, I wanted to talk about the things I was doing the people I was seeing. So I kind of just decided to start talking about everybody with it. I scared a lot of people away. But some of the people I was dating, were more open to that. And then I met someone who brought me to a sex party. And that pretty much changed my life in a way specifically though, because I when I was there I met him I met a woman who is now running that party as well. was starting to I started dating her for we were dating for a couple years, I think I ran the party with her. And there's just like the mother lode of poly people at, well, that party, but there's a lot of different things that now pull I think Polly people together. It's, I say practice, probably because I don't think it's, I think it can be poly minded. But I feel like Poly is a practice, it's a thing you have to do. And the more you know, when you when you're doing it, then you become poly. So inherently by hanging out with other poly people, that happens. Through that seven years, I became very close with one of my partners who I just got married to in April, August, August. One of those, so at some point, it's at some point recently. And throughout, yeah, through seven years, we've been through, I think, pretty much every structure that we could have been where I had another girlfriend before I was boyfriend and girlfriend with her. We were then I we were dating, and I had a girlfriend, and she didn't have a boyfriend where she was discovering, dating, and our relationship and then, and then she had a boyfriend. And then the other girlfriend I had we kind of just transitioned to friends. So then I was she had another partner and I didn't and and then kind of backwards and forwards and we've been through. It's interesting, we've been through a lot. And we both kind of teach we teach it a lot. I mean, in running large parties with poly people, you you tend to talk about it a whole lot. So we've been through every different kind of structure that we think we could find. But then something else happens. That's the first time that happened. So we're constantly learning together. And yeah, I don't know.

Effy

Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Great. Can I pass it on to you?

Clara

Hello, my name is Clara. I think you will soon notice that almost like a noticeable accent to me. i I'm sure it's always I worked so hard at hiding. It's not true. I'm Italia. And I'll say it right away. So it's clear. So let's see the journey into Paulie, I think for way before hearing about it. I certainly like probably many of you as well, I had a sense of gosh, there has to be something different. And why do we make such a big deal about the fact that we may experience attraction to other people besides our primary partner and but you know, I grew up in Italy, I only moved here 12 years ago. So definitely, there even less than here, there was nothing of this kind. So no framework whatsoever. So it's almost like when you you know, when you don't have the vocabulary for something is almost you cannot perceive it or you can you can even fathom that there can be something else. So I just had, you know, I had that I actually remember when as I was preparing for tonight, an episode where I was reading an Italian novel soon after he moved to New York. And somewhere in it was not a deep novel, just so you know, nothing that I would recommend necessarily, but but but there was a point towards the end of the book where the protagonist who and him and his partner would end up with a co living separately but being together and that was like the first kind of inkling of different possibilities. And I was reading that was that hole. That's cool. You know that I can see that. Yeah, that that sounds cool. And then things like that, you know, the started to resonate at times. And a couple of very unsuccessful attempts at articulating this when I didn't have a framework for that didn't work well though. Some people still do not speak to me that to this day. And, and then at some point, actually, I encountered the term for the first time, about nine years ago, and with a former partner of mine, and he had been in a poly relationship. So he said, You know, I wasn't a politician when I watch that PA. Oh, yes. See interesting. And it wasn't immediately Oh, god, there's something there's something that can capture what I was thinking. Now, unfortunately, he hadn't been like overly excited about it. So it was more like, you know, I was in that but it was a bit painful and challenging. But he that you asides from that is was probably one of the first very kind of conscious, let's call it emotionally mature relationship that I had. And so even though we really were not poly, we navigated our relationship With a lot of transparency and with the idea of, you know, if thing comes up, come up with let's talk about it. And so let's not hide from that. And it just didn't did not come up for a while until they did come up. And so eventually, I really felt very hard in love with someone after maybe three years into our relationship. We spoke about it with right the three of us may not necessarily all together, but one on one in some ways, eventually me and my former partner in transition, and since and very amicably, to the point that I still cohabit with him for years later is like, become like my best buddy and you have is often you're not tonight, but is another fox is amazing person for the records. Just to give you just in case, I'm not gonna name you, but you know, and, and since then, since that transition, and I really went more into wanting to explore these more consciously and, and that's, of course, when I met fe, because things just happen when when you're ready for them. At that point, though, I think this is interesting to mention, there's started to be something else that was very relevant to my exploration, which was, I started practicing and studying nonviolent communication, I'm sure some of you may have heard that. And I think most people know about that, more from the kind of the language model of some form of speaking and in a certain way, and the way I arrived to that was a bit different. And I was taught, and we see more as a really, I want to say, as a map to understand my life from a perspective of needs. And so MVC as a practice led me to really deconstruct almost all the things that all the assumptions that I had about how things should work and how to make decisions in my life. And of course, one of the first things that came was the how to do relationships and, and so that, and that also led me to a complete career transition and was a scientist before, that's what brought me here to the States. And then, since about four years ago, I shifted like less my older job, and now I teach nonviolent communication, and it was quite the leap. But that was so important. That's what that's where we met. But it was so crucial because and I think it informed a lot of the way I approached Polly, which was more of a I call it like, I feel like I resonate with the idea of anarchy. But in for me, anarchy means kind of needs based or agreement based conscious relationships. I mean, I don't want to it's kind of like, approached in a way where I don't take for granted the form that my connections can take. And I allow them or allow the people in them to slowly discover where, you know, where Wait, can we land in our connection. So. So in that sense, fast forward to now I mean, I, again, I think I'm more consciously started to walk the poly path, maybe I would say four years ago, because that was happening alongside with my career transition, I did not have a lot of bandwidth today, it honestly was, you know, I felt so shaky so unstable, that the least of the things on my mind was exposing myself to something more it was like letting go of all reference points. But But I brought it in the web I dated usually dated for a couple of years one person at a time in spite of still bringing the the intention of openness and when I want to, this is how I want to approach it. And but yes, do we the with really more on most of my energy focused on on the the changing careers, and then it was actually just this past summer, I was like, Okay, now maybe start to feel a bit more comfortable here, maybe opening up horizons a little bit more. And of course, lo and behold, there's something appeared, someone appeared right at that point here at curious Fox. And so it does happen, it does happen. And yeah, so since I wouldn't say so since the summit, it's been really quite a deep dive into into more of the real experience of poly meaning, having multiple partners and for the first time connecting with Metamora. So with my partners partners, and I'm, yeah, I didn't Yeah, then think it's like something after discovering it. There is no way I could, I could not embrace for me, you know, this way of approaching relationships. And that doesn't exclude in my view that then you A you know, everyone may choose the form that best suits them. So whether that to me, we may include being monogamous if that's the choice. And I love that very much, usually how you present that. So there is a lot more, and I'm looking forward to share all sorts of nuances, but I'll shut up now.

Effy

Beautiful.

Hello, everyone, I'm LT. Tell you a little bit about myself. I'm a native New Yorker. I identify as a queer person, also as non binary and polyamorous, so I try to hit all the all the boxes so that no one wants to talk to me. So it's like, yeah, so it's, it's very fun. I'm also a pleasure base, sex educator as well, and teach a myriad of different Well, I should say, lead, I don't really think of his teaching, because I learned a lot working with people. But yeah, so we lead a myriad of courses with my good friend who is a pro DOM and you know, we do kin classes, we do intimacy classes, we talk about conversion every once in a while, and comes up. And as far as my journey, relationship wise, I always kind of reevaluate it. And sometimes I have to remind myself not to discount, discount the time where you feel like you weren't as present, or you weren't doing it as well, or you weren't as emotionally immature. So I think the piggyback off of Clara's said, consciously, with the poly community, and really, like said, building a community, I would say about five years. I like to tell people I've been non monogamous since I was at least eight years old. At this context of that, I'll try to make it quick. So I wasn't romantically saying anyone. But I would always go, I would always go to my parents and ask them why people only were married to one person. Yeah. So my mom was really big about counter education, I suppose. So I go to school, I learned something, I'd come home, and she made me learn something else. So I'd have to study all these different all the different cultures around the world, and then they would come up. So I would ask, and they would just only answer I would get was, well, bigamy is illegal. And I was like, well, that's not really a great answer. You know, like, most of the stuff that was going on in my community, even within my home was illegal. So I'm like, well, it's not really like a thing, either. Yeah, like, that's not really an answer. But I never wanted to have one best friend. You know, I never wanted to play one sport. You know, so there was never a thing where I felt like I needed to choose. So the first experience I would say, I shouldn't say the first we'll just we'll speed up, Mike, I'm good at it. So I've been chasing polyamory. That's how I like to describe it, chasing polyamory, trying to find a community trying to find language around it. Trying to not force myself to fit in with something that I didn't feel came naturally to me. So I would say 2002 I was living in Atlanta. I'll make it real quick. Fe 2002. I was living in Atlanta. I met again, there's a long time ago. Right? There was no the internet wasn't really poppin like that. So he kind of you had to meet people the old fashioned way. You had to meet him in somewhere. And she had had she was a member of a sex club. That was maybe about 15 minutes from my house near we just area called Six Flags. And yeah, it was it was rainy a Six Flags. I don't want to I don't want to show the club. I don't know free, free publicity. So I met her and she had said all Yeah, listen, I'm a member of this club. She was very open. She was very free and very liberated. And I was like, Oh, that's pretty cool. She was like, Yeah, I'm going to this club. We'd like to go Saturday. And I was like, oh, yeah, okay, cool. I knew about it. Trust me. I knew all about this club. And I remember calling my best friend. And I was like, hey, guess what, I'm going tomorrow night. And he was like were so I said the name. He was like, motherfucker. Not conversion. There was not conversion. He was not he was not joyous. He was not joyous for me. Not at least not in the moment, at least not in a moment and that night, and that really was like one of our first dates, which is interesting. And I tell people, it's the I saw someone I saw them have sex with someone before I ever had sex with them. And there was nothing nothing came up. Like I didn't like I wasn't like, Oh, this is gross. I wasn't turned off by it. I wasn't I really was excited about how liberated everyone felt, and how free everyone was. And I had some of the best conversations in the back of that play. If, which is, you know, another story. But yeah, that's, that's who I am for the most part. And I've experienced a lot of different relationship styles. I've gone back and forth, there's times where I'm like, Yeah, I'll you know, I'm willing to try any relationship that feels like it fits the partners involved. And I still believe that just without monogamy. So that's that's where we are. And I'm happy to be here with you, folks.

Effy

Thank you. Thank you for sharing LT. Let me introduce myself quickly, I will keep it short. My name is Effy Blue. I'm a relationship coach, I work with people who are curious about transitioning into or have hit some sort of a roadblock in open relationships, non monogamy. That's what I do by day. And then this is my passion projects we've been doing. I've been doing this for three years. I bring people like these amazing people. And we pick a theme, and we talk about it. And we bring a book together a community of people sort of exploring their own way. And that's what I do in my spare time. And then whatever is left, I concentrate on my relationships, which is not my site. So personally, I live with a partner. And I've been polyamorous for about five years. And similar to most of these stories, a part of me is kind of known that the traditional structure just doesn't work for me. And for a long time, I felt like I was just I was just I sucked at relationships as a story. I told myself, I just suck at relationships. And then I, one thing led to another and I sort of had this like, crash into the non monogamous sex positive community in New York City. And suddenly a light bulb went on. And I was like, oh, it's not that I suck at relationships, I just suck at a certain type of relationship. And that's not the, that's not my only option. So I was like, oh, okay, I get that. So and that was kind of the beginning of my exploration. And then similar to McLaren NBC, I was kind of really taken by this idea. And you know, a natural nerd. So I went to this deep dive and undecided to sort of learn anything and everything that I can learn about non monogamy and sort of that led to me passing a lot of my infant my knowledge on to other people. And that eventually led to me and just as coaching and then doing events like this so that other people can have that experience of, oh, there isn't just one size fits all relationship. There are other ones too. And then my own personal relationship, I have a life partner whom I live with. My other partner and his wife lives downstairs, we all live in the same building together, it's beautiful and great, we're kind of a, like, what people called Kitchen Table Polly, which essentially means that every now and then we get to sit around the table, break bread and check in and see how everyone's doing. We've been doing that now for so my partner and my partner who lives downstairs, and I've been together for no three years, he and his wife has been together for four years, my, my partner who lives me with me, he's moved in a few months in November, and he and I have been together for over a year. And we kind of live in this space, and it's working out for us. And there is a lot of comparison. I think people always ask, like, why does it work for you guys you like works for you. And everyone's thriving? Like, how do you make it happen? Some of it is definitely hard work. And you know, relationships are hard work, regardless of what shape and size they come in. They really are even in a monogamous relation, even with your relationship with yourself, you need to put the work in. So in any relationship there is work. So some of it is that we do put the work in and the other one is we kind of lucked out a little bit. I think, this positionally, we're not jealous people like we It doesn't come up in many areas of our lives. We're also people that have other passions outside. So we have this balance to the relationship. We're not just all about the relationship. So we have these passions and balance. And we also kind of find these moments of joy for one another and really celebrate what's working and what's happening with the other person. So we're also in tune with the other people's passion. So when good things happen, we're able to celebrate that. And that includes meeting new people, which is a passion of ours, meeting new people and relationships. So it kind of folds in with everything else that we're doing. So we find those moments of joy and celebration in each of those relationships. And that's kind of how it works in our household. And that kind of brings us to the end of the intros. And this is where we open up to you guys to ask any question that you have.

Speaker 1

My question isn't exactly about conversion, but I feel like it's related. So currently, I have two lovers. Both are seeing other people. One is kind of single poly and dating the other or lives with his girlfriend. And they've been together like seven years, and have known each other much longer than that. I'm having no issues with like being happy for either of them. For the one when he's with his girlfriend, the other when he's dating, like, I'm not having a problem with jealousy or conversion. But what is happening with me, which I think is kind of related, because it's another kind of learn, taught cultural thing is the one who has a girlfriend who I've met, she's lovely, adorable. They're a fantastic couple, like, I really enjoyed meeting her and seeing them together. And, you know, think they're great. When I see him, we have a great time. And then I wake up in the morning, and I was great last night, I feel great. And then I have a thought that is, what are you doing fucking someone else's boyfriend. You know, I, I grew up with this idea that you never date someone else's boyfriend, you never go anywhere near someone else's boyfriend. And so I don't have a problem with feeling happy for them when they're with someone else. But I do wake up in the morning, and I slept shame myself. You know, even though it was her idea to open up the relationship, she's by and wants to see women and encouraged him to start seeing other people. So you know, she would feel okay about seeing other people. She absolutely gave me the thumbs up and the green light and we'd like each other. Like, she has no issue with it. But I wake up in the morning and I this historical, cultural stuff comes up like why the hell are you fucking someone else's boyfriend? Sorry about all the cursing. So I'm just wondering, like, what what you guys think about that, and how you sort of unpack that other message? You know, it's not a message like compare and despair. Oh, they're with someone else? And I feel terrible because they're with someone else. It's, it's but I feel like it's kind of related.

Effy

It sounds like guilt and shame. Is that what you would call like? Is that Is that what you would name? Yeah, guilt and shame.

Unknown Speaker

At least Shame, shame. I don't feel guilty because she knows about it. And she's fine with it. But there is an element of of of shaming myself. Yeah.

Speaker 2

The first thing that comes to mind is me something that in general, is how I relate to when I catch myself judging myself for something, which is, and this is a bit again, inherited from from the MVC but there's something about okay, I catch myself judging myself, what is the judgment trying to do to me or to tell, and I am in the process of dating, also someone who is in a longer term primary relationship, and I have felt at times like, okay, am I just, you know, breaking their harmony? Or who is who and what am I going to do, and, and I find it helpful, rather than, you know, kind of slapped shaming myself translated that I really, I really care for them, and I value their connection. And ideally, two things on the one thing, I really want to make sure that they are okay, and that there is a sense of care and support. And on my end, maybe I still have to give myself some self compassion about how much I have judged myself for that. And so maybe there is a deep yearning for acceptance and for, you know, kind of almost like a self forgiveness. And I also think,

Unknown Speaker

it's like, Who do I think I am, that I'm so powerful to destroy their relationship? You know, like, it's a bit of blowing myself out of proportion in terms of the importance, but But yeah, a lot of it is that I really like her, you know, and I really like how they are together, and I, you know, I value what I see in them as a couple. And I'm like, What are you doing?

Unknown Speaker

Like, in that way, I can just own the vulnerability of IBM, I am scared that maybe I can mess up I am I'm concerned. I mean, I am a vulnerable person and stepping into something new. But it sounds to me so much better than telling myself you know, I'm, I'm whatever words I can use for that. So I try to see what what needs is that judgment trying to kind of to meet or to or to protect, and then centered on them and seeing what that informs me to do, whether it's communicating with them, you know, or is there something maybe that's deeper hidden in there? So that's one part but if if other wants to add

Unknown Speaker

Well, I don't know. You said you met her and you think that she's lovely? What I and I don't know how much you the three of you have hung out but Um, for me, I guess I'm a little spoiled, I suppose and that a lot of the people I date, we're a part of a large community, like I said, if people are just hanging out all the time, so we're, we know, everyone very well. But to me, that's always really, it's differentiated relationships from people. And relationships are things that people have with each other. But in each person is their own person, really, even my partners are not my relationship, but they're their own person. And so the more I think that you can learn about and be a part of actually their relationship as well, that's always been really meaningful to me, because any other partner that I've been, I've had a primary, most of my poly life, I suppose. And any other relationship I have, has to exist in and around my primary relationship. If it's, the more separate it is, the more it feels like it's, it's not a part of my life, right. So if you you know, and I don't know if you're comfortable with that, but but I think the more comfortable that you are with, with the both of them and with their relationship, and can be a part of their relationship, because you you are, you'll feel not only will this feel better, I think for you, but for them as well.

Speaker 4

I like to advocate shame free sexual positivity. Another little bubble I put myself in is I also practice relationship anarchy. So what I would say about, what I think I'm hearing you bring up is, there's a blockage to self acceptance, that happens a lot of times when you first start opening up your relationships, or you're meeting people, and you're, you know, you're, you're seeing how deep their relationship goes. So you're maybe waking up and you say, Oh, what am I doing this for? What am I doing that for? That socially conditioned ideas that have built been, you know, these pathways have been drawn in your mind for a very long time. So yeah, you're just working through those things. But you should ask yourself, this, this makes me happy. This sparks joy. I'm able to be open, and maybe it'd be honest. Um, maybe it'd be accepted by these folks. Right? This relationship is is is welcoming to you. Right. So you, we have to practice that with ourselves as well. So I have to be welcoming to myself, I have to be honest with myself and say, this is this is what I want. And sometimes it's hard because you're still dealing with, you know, old thoughts, you're still dealing with the community that maybe you grew up in, you're dealing dealing with the family structures that you've dealt with. And that lack of acceptance, there sometimes falls onto us when we are alone. And one of the things Eric brought up was about community and overlap. So once you start changing, hopefully, once you start being able to build more of a community, and like he was saying, getting to know, folks who view relationships similarly, then you start replacing those ideas. So now that boy voices in your head go from Oh, you shouldn't be doing that, too. You should do it. You should. Yeah, you should definitely do it. Right. So once you start replacing your community voices, it, you know, it changes the dynamic. So yeah, I think, you know, you're just you're getting there. I think it sounds lovely.

Effy

Yeah, I think that's a really good point that I encourage people I work with clients all the time, I call it changing the noise. So the noise that we have around us that we don't realize every all the messages that we're getting is a certain way, and there's a lot can change in society if you change the noise around you. And that's why I like the resources that I share with people. It's like people, you can follow podcasts, you listen to shows, shows, books, you know, YouTube channels, like a bunch of things that if you just want to plug some of that into your life and change the noise around you, including community, so how people talking about their own relationships, that has changed a lot for me, and, you know, I think I like to have a balance of that noise. So like mainstream as well as, as, like, sort of within the community. And I think we don't realize how much we're affected by that. So, you know, just think about the noise around you like what are you what are you hearing all the time and like tune it, tune it in like take take control of it, and like tune it in to what what you want to what you want to hear.

Speaker 5

If she said, You have to negate the noise that surrounds you, okay. And I will say I would go even further I would say that for women, it's even more difficult, because we what you're describing is compassion, but for the girl not not for the man not for your friend as such. So it was a displaced way of it was empathy for her and because we have been trained this way, in a way of feeling guilty of being the bad one or breaking out, you know, like the beach or the witch, or whatever you call it. It's very cultural and very hard. So I think that your compassion was not for yours should be for yourself, not for her, in other words that allow yourself to have pleasure. But you know, because you're in a poly part that the beauty of it is that you're not hurting her, because she knows about it, and she accepts it. For me, that's the most important part. And that's where the ethics come in. Because why we call it ethical slut, is because you don't want to hurt nobody, because you're happy. So it's very gendered, then the role as well. And it's not easy. But

Effy

you're right. You're right. Thank you. Yeah.

Speaker 6

So I am blessed to be in a really lovely triad. Well, not not tried a partner whose partner I really love. So I've been lucky so far, despite being a Scorpio not having had a lot of jealousy in this, but the one time I did notice was when I felt like I wasn't full. And this specifically happened when he was traveling. And because of the situation like he was able to see her more frequently, but not me. And he and I were like, able to meet for dinner and stuff, but not really be intimate. So I was feeling like, really, like I was, you know, being teased and kinda like had to really just stay present to my desire for him, but not be able to do anything about it. Curious if any of you have had that experience of ultimately, how do you show up in compassion, and then loving and giving when you feel like your needs are not being met? And then you have to watch your partner give that to someone else? So that's one and the other question is, I am also starting to date, or have an interested in dating a man that has seemed to reciprocate their attraction, who, who is aware of how PolyWorks has a lot of friends who have been poly, and his experience has been that people get, Paul, you know, people, at some point, always want to close their relationship for a little bit. And he's had expressed concern that that might be, you know, something that might come up. How do you like, navigate that in the day to day when that is a possibility? That's really present.

Effy

Cool. Thank you. Good questions. Just to sort of summarize, essentially, how do we, how do you find the space for conversion when our needs aren't met in a relationship? Start with that one?

Speaker 7

I don't exactly have an answer for that. But it because I think it's the thing you have to work through. There's no easy answer. I think for that, what I have found in looking at that jealousy, and you kind of answered your own question there, I feel like which is just communication, like at all, that is almost always the source of problems like that. And almost always, the answer that I have found is articulating what you need, or what you're not getting and talking about what they need and working on, on some way to make you and them and everyone kind of happy in a way. And that's not always possible, obviously. But the more that it's not just kind of you feeling these feelings. The other the other really, I think, important thing that that I've learned about it sounded kind of like you're talking about jealousy or or like feeling that feeling of jealousy that like J word that that people are nervous about. I actually really, I I like that feeling because I found that I feel what I'm actually feeling when I feel that is envy. And to me, that's a useful feeling. Because now I've learned something new about myself that I maybe you didn't realize you wanted to drive them to the airport, specifically right? But now you you know that and you know if and when that happens again, you're able to use those tools to set yourself up for for a better you know, there's if that happens, feelings get hurt all the time, but I think there's a lot of learning you can do and talk about it. Don't hold that in obviously come to a meeting and talk to all of us. That's a great start, you know?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I love your question and I resonate with that a lot as in one of the relationship that is the dearest to me, as is in a way has. I can call it a try it in some way. And although it may, so we sort of like them to labels but in a way they're The two people that I really love very deeply and and it began more of Weiner with one of the one of them and then my initially matter more than become became also a partner to me. And that is a very interesting and delicate dynamics in that it's like almost like the three one on one dynamic plus what emerges from the three of us together. And I think it I think one thing that's very, very important to me is that we all pay attention to each of these relationships almost and make it and because there are needs, almost for all of them and, like being careful to name them and to not, you know, we can assume that they're all, you know, equal, we have, you know, we have different nuances in the, in the, you know, in, I think in each of our connections, and I think it's, it's important that we pay attention, for example, that we know, we value the one on one time that we have and to pay attention when, when maybe circumstances do not allow for that to, to at least name that, you know, like even in a situation like the one to describe the like, where you were to where there was a discomfort for you and and an unmet need, and maybe the situation couldn't change to maybe just make space to just name that, okay, there is a discomfort, I can feel that. It's okay, it's gonna happen. Maybe not being scared to it sometimes like I, you know, I'm scared even to admit it, because like, you know, to one of them, because oh my god that does that mean that I don't know that I love the other person lesser, but no, you know, it's okay, we're gonna feel things. And I find that at least and we had recently and experienced when one of us brought up an experience of, of jealousy for in an episode, or an imbalance of attention. And, and we named that and we kind of even just the experience of listening to one another and really bring a lot of empathy, in ability to just listen, we don't necessarily need to fix the thing. We can just listen, make space acknowledge. And most often, once that happens, the problem is no longer there.

Effy

The other thing for me, it's sort of along the lines, what Claire is saying is that, for me, I keep an eye on like, episodes versus trends. And that's, that's important to me, like just episode episodes and miscommunication episodes of like, Oh, I didn't feel good versus trend of I'm not getting my needs met. And this is this relationship doesn't make me happy, this doesn't straighten doesn't bring me joy, right? There is no space for joy versus hated these, like, human to be human is to be flawed. And here where we like, you know, just being human, like we're just miscommunicating and being human, and it doesn't work. So it's just episodes, because feelings aren't going to get heard. We are flawed communication is hard. Relationships are hard, I think and then just to, to recognize that it's just an episode, and that we're not drowned by it, we're not defined by it. That, you know, we name it in the hopes that it won't happen again. But also realizing that it just might, you know, and as long as it doesn't define your relationship, and it's not the trend, I think you kind of just live and work through it. One of the things that I say to people the idea for me, the ideal is to build relationships that can withstand the humanity of the people inside it. And anything that's then that's allowing for just we're gonna fuck up, you know, we're gonna hurt one another. Hopefully, we build a shell that allows us to, like, heal within that within that structure as well. And the other question was about what if one person decides not to be open? What happens then?

Unknown Speaker

What if one person decides that they want to change the relationship agreement? So yeah, I mean, it goes back to communication, discussing it and, you know, knowing where your where your boundaries are and what your needs are. I mean, someone might say, Hey, listen, I, you know, I want to close my relationship. Then you might say, Well, I'm not sure if I want to do that. And then you say, Well, I didn't mean with you.

Unknown Speaker

I'm interested in doing so. And I didn't mention in the beginning, so. So I teach a class on comparison, and there's actually a video floating around with me talking about it. So that kind of puts me in a position where people might think I'm like cabling conversion. But there's, there's there's a difference, like what Effy said about longing for something. Feeling jealousy, feeling envy. or insecurity about your relationships. Now, if someone coming to me and saying, you know, I'm insecure that if I go into an open relationship, that I may want to close it at some point. To me, that's like you saying, hey, I want a job, you know, but I think I might quit maybe in a month. Right? So it's a signal to me that I might maybe you still have a lot to work on. And it's about seeing, not just, is this person attractive and sexy and wonderful, and a good friend and all those things? But also, can I be the type of partner this person needs? Can that person be the type of partner I need? So yeah, for me, personally, there's, you know, not closing it. But they decided to do that, I would say, I'm always open to discussing a relationship agreement, things are fluid. And I think if you're open to doing that, then you can communicate around what your boundaries are. And maybe there's some medium there, you know, maybe that person doesn't want to see someone else. But it's happy if you do. So it's just really about talking about what, what can work, and you're in between your relationship, and between the two of you, or the three of you, or the four of you, I don't know how many people are involved in this.

Unknown Speaker

One of the things I find is so special about Polly is it's sort of the labels kind of become a little bit more fluid in a way, like, at what point are you like my girlfriend, or obviously, I've got the government involved with my wife. But other than that, there's really, other than that, there's no hard defining terms for things. And I think what's really special about it is that you're able to have a relationship with someone and let it be kind of where you are, right. And people change all the time. This is why monogamous relationships don't work because people change eventually, and they need something different. I would suggest, as people can, like, close, and this doesn't always apply, because sometimes the relationship structures like I don't want to seeing these other people anymore. But I've had real I have had a lot of relationships where we were dating and sleeping together. And then we sort of just both became really good friends. And we're still friends today, or I have a girlfriend and she, she thinks that she's gay, or I think she is gay, like, like, and so our thinks were like, still my girlfriend, but we're not sleeping together anymore. It's very, like, there's a lot of the sleeping together and the relationship don't have to be the same. Right? Like the relationship you have with people can be that let it just be that and it can change as people change, I think.

Effy

And within in line with change, also going into a relationship with a bunch of what ifs, right? Like, what if you decide to change, you know, structure? What if you get hit by a bus? What have you, you know, like, you can't, you can't? It is so you can't go in there with what ifs? You know, ideally, for me, I'm what I think it works is like being present, and agreeing on a set of values for that relationship and for yourself from that relationship and just showing up present in line with those values. And sort of show up that way within the relationship rather than making up all these like what if, what if, what if, what if what if, because once you start that game, there's no end to that game, you can come up with a million what ifs, good and bad, right? Things that you do want and you don't want. I think it kind of does disservice to people. It's just a waste of energy, time and effort that you can use that on being present and connecting and having communications and discussing values and showing up in that way. Because there's no value in the what ifs really

Unknown Speaker

just I wanted to add one thing, thinking about it. So I have these really two, I have two really good friends and their partners have been partners for about seven, eight years. And they describe themselves as polyamorous. I love them a lot. I'm not romantically involved with them. But they go through periods of, you know, a little bit more close, a little bit more open. So there is a lot of value to that has really aided their relationship. So there's times where Oh, Q's mom was really sick. And, you know, we really needed to kind of come together and I said to spend a lot more of a time, you know, holding space for Q and her in her family. And at that time I wasn't dating a lot of people, you know, are, you know, I my job change, or I don't feel good about this, or maybe there's children involved. So there's times where you're gonna go through different periods of maybe you're a little bit more open, a little bit more closed. Right? I think it's not creating an absolute not creating these boundaries, right? It's because we're interested in open relationships. The open part for me, is being open hearted, being open minded, you know, not so much being so rigid, where I'm saying, Well, we're close now. And as I Okay, what does that mean that we close a business Like, what does it entail? That doesn't mean you can't watch adult films? I mean, like, what? Where does you know? Where does it go? Right? So it's more, it's more about what is our relationship need? You know? And if someone says, Hey, listen, you know, I'm working three jobs. I don't have time to see anyone else right now. And maybe you like dating together and you like, Okay, well, let's delete all the apps and let's hang out for a little while. So I think just, you know, like everyone's saying, check in check in with your partner. And you know, ya know, what, if if you teach classes, everyone's Coach, what if? What if this what does it what it is right? And I'm like, Well, you know, what, if your cat barking your dog, you know, and your dog meow? That's basically my answer that Yeah.

Effy

Question, we have another question.

Speaker 8

I recently exited my first ever probably relationship. And I'm trying to figure out there's a database term called rolling back your changes. Do I need to like roll back? My understanding of how Polly I may or may not be? Do I need to roll back the Facebook posts where I referenced more than two? Do I need to? know do I need to put a different message out there, given the possibility that I still might be a hopeless, monogamous romantic, like my ex fiance was three and a half years ago? Just all of those questions to the panel, and thank you for everything you've said,

Unknown Speaker

Well, like I said earlier, I feel like Poly is a thing you do. I, I feel like I am poly. But if I wasn't practicing it with other partners, then I would just like poly minded. I suppose that could be a thing. But if you feel so I guess then to answer your question is that if you feel like that was the right structure for you? I don't see the need to I don't think you have to roll that any of that back, I would say, continue to look for other other people that are open. And I guess it depends on what you what you need, I think you you are going to have the answers for some of those better than any, like we would. But it's a again, like we were saying earlier, a lot of this is just about the relationship that you have with people and what you need from them. You've learned, I don't know how long your last poly relationship was, but I imagine you'd learn some useful skills about that, which I think could be applied to monogamous relationships as well. Communication and things like that. So yeah, I don't know. It depends on Yeah, sorry.

Unknown Speaker

So in part two, I think maybe, it's yeah, there is a big depends, because I don't know exactly sounds like do I understand correctly that you're saying that you're in a way questioning? You're being really poorly after the end of these relationships? Or as they're being something that felt didn't work out the way you were imagining? It? Could? Is it something in that direction? Yeah. Yeah, to me, it's really it's all learning and you know, it's, I see it very kind of diet dynamic. And I was recalling something that I think I heard from Elizabeth chef when she when she came here about you were saying Polly something you do and I think and she was mentioning how you know, there's a way you can see Polly as an orientation and Polly as a choice, right? So in a way, for some people is something as is very, it feels very, like almost like it's something that I identify myself with at once I find that that's me is like I love you know, and it's very natural as opposed to or not as opposed to but alongside with also being a choice that Okay, makes sense based on the values that I have. Like for me there's like a value of honesty and authenticity and freedom that I just want to kind of champion them for people in general than for me so going back to that so whether than a particular form is going to work for me. I think it may depend on on a lot of different things maybe uh, where I am in my life in a certain moment what what needs are standing out so I'm not sure if I would question completely like maybe that you know, is it is this is I don't see necessarily as black or white but maybe there's something is going on there that maybe you weren't clearly seeing. So what is that the interesting question is okay, what is that is it about how to experience a sense maybe of stability or security or So consistency and all that it can be many things. Once you identify that then maybe you can see okay, then what for model of relating could support that What other ingredients? Do I need maybe to have that without questioning? Necessarily? The label per se? I don't know if it makes sense of it.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. So we can we can get loose. Yeah, we can get loose. I'm ready to get loose. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I'm glad. I'm glad you brought up very patriarchal, or heteronormative societal standards on relationships. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, you know, and another thing, it's, it's bringing that into your open relationships. So bringing it into polyamory, like, you know, like, fuck that noise. Like, seriously. You're going to just recreate that same dynamic each time and questioning if you're polyamorous or not. relationships don't work. I mean, I mean, not like they don't ever work. I'm saying relationships don't work, they don't work out. Sometimes you have a partner, and it's just not a good fit. You know, they you have an agreement, and they just go on break every agreement. And then you have other partners where you're being asked to do things that don't feel natural to you. So just because I call it a certain type of relationship, doesn't mean it's automatically going to work. So there's no fix. There's no like, Damn, you know, every time I'm in monogamous relationship, it doesn't work out. I'm just going to do his poly thing. And then that's not working out, right? Because now you've, you've made basically what I've done is I've opened a pizzeria, and I'm losing money. And then I opened another one, a couple blocks down, right? It's just like, it's like, well, how are you feeling at this business? Why are you opening up? Right? So it's, it turned into it turns into that. So I have to look at how I'm approaching it. Like, how am I approach my relationships? How present? Am I? You know, how intimate am I? How vulnerable Am I right? And then, in order for me to fully assess where I'm at, and what I can bring into a relationship, and then when you start meeting new partners, and adding to that, you'll figure out where you're where your edges are, you figure out what your bandwidth is, as you say, and you might be, I've met people that I'm like, Oh, you're so wonderful. And like, you know, I'm kind of polyunsaturated right now. Right? So and that's, and that's, and that's, that's really self aware, to know that like, Hey, listen, you know, I'm you're seeking to meet people, you know, even times I gotta pull back. Because if people are, Hey, what are you doing? What are you doing Saturday? What are you doing Saturday? Well, you're doing Saturday, right? So, like, god damn right. So I'm like, Well, between one you know, and you don't, and I don't want to do that, because it's very mechanical. Right? The other thing I would add not to go on forever. But this kind of got me worked up in a good way, in a very, in a very good way. is, you know, you meet people we meet, we meet each other, we all come into the community learn we're all learning no matter where we've been in our in our journey. But in the beginning, there's because it's become so accessible. I think nowadays. People are jumping right in, like they just jumping. I mean, they, like, you know, two feet in there on the on, you know, this app, they're on this website. They're at, you know, they're curious Fox, they're at the party, Eric's throwing, you know, they're at the pool party. And everywhere I go, I see him on like, shit, right. So people are like jumping headfirst, like deep, deep end right deep in, they don't know where their edges are. They don't know what's going to come up for them. And they're just way in, right their way in and you don't realize you're jealous, until someone's your partner's, like, tied up suspended. There's a flogger. There's a wax, right? There's like, you know, 15 different people, there's a pool and you're like, What the hell just happened? Right? So So I think it's, I think it's important to do do the, to really, to really take take your time with it, you know, really take your time and it's there's, there's no shame in that. There's no shame in saying, I'm poly minded, you know, I feel poly as identity. But I'm not ready for I'm not ready for LTTB in a kitchen like this. Not ready for that. Right? So as opposed to saying, I need to be ready. And I want to be ready, right? Because we're we're fearful of doing something wrong. Like I'm a poly wrong. I'm a bad poly person. Like if you've probably heard that a billion times i If I wish I had $1 Every time someone said, I just feel like, you know, I'm just bad at Poly. I'm just a bad poly person. And I'm just like, I don't know what that means. You know, it's almost like someone I mean, I'm just, you know, I'm just a really bad Martian. It's like, what in what context? Right if if you're unethical, then definitely you're doing it wrong. That's only the only hard line I got is that if it's unethical, if you're doing other people harm, you're doing it wrong. As far as like, whatever you know, she's not working out. You know, I wasn't ready for what I stepped into then. Yeah, we you what you said you you know that you need to pull that out. Right and think about okay, what steps what did I do in that relationship that contributed to it either being not as successful as I want it to be?

Unknown Speaker

Or what can I do for myself to where I walk into the next experience, monogamous, polyamorous, whatever we want to call it, where I feel like I'm setting my boundaries, and I'm setting my expectations, and I'm being open. So yeah.

Effy

I agree with everything he says. Yeah, also just one little addendum. Polly's a bit of a catch all, just from a just verb like language point of view. Polly's a bit of a catch all word. I always like what does that mean to you? And what does that look like for you is a really good question to ask. Like, I actually agree that with personally I think monogamy is similarly like we say monogamy, but we still need to investigate what that is. Because like is sexting somebody cheating is watching porn, cheating, even monogamy has like some definitions needed. And poly, or polyamory or open relationships, even that, like you need clarity on what that looks like for the other person. So you might have just come out of a poly relationship. But like, what was that relationship really looks like, you know, and it does that doesn't know, I mean, that you're not going to pull the overall it's just like that just didn't work for you. So investigate what didn't work for you. And I bet they're things that did work for you. So like, those are your takeaways and what didn't work is where there's room for adjustment. So it's to say like, I'm not good at Poly ever, because like, what does that really mean? Like, what are you not good at? Like what? Which part of it that you're not good at? You need to identify that? Does that does that make sense?

Speaker 9

First time boxer Hi, panel, hey. I recently in all the time have conversion moments, but recently, like a really great one. But I was wondering what some of your favorite conversion moments are some of your happy Polly moments.

Unknown Speaker

It's not exactly a moment, but I remember the first. The first time I really experienced that very firmly it was. I mean, it makes total sense. But I was with my girlfriend's boyfriend at the time. They're married now. These are the partner downstairs partners, Effie was talking about. And we're up. Well, no, this is he, I was talking to him. And I was very new to this all and he was like, oh, like, I love you too together like this is That's so like, you make her so happy. You know, we were we were already saying that we love each other at this point in our relationship. Because like, I love that so much that you guys like you, you make her so happy. And like, I love her, you. She loves you, you make her happy, that makes me happy. Like this house is so like, I'm like, fuck that. Like that makes, that was the first time someone really articulated that to me that way. Like, I love that you love her because that makes her happy and makes me happy. And that's great. So the the moments I have most often are just when my partner is with someone that makes her really excited. And that makes me really excited that excitement, I'm able, you know, we pulled into our relationship. It's it's sort of a selfish act, all these other things we do, because every other partner every other relationship really fuels our relationship.

Effy

My favorite conversion compressive moment was I was the best ma'am. And my partner and is now wives wedding. And it was so nice. It was so nice to be asked to be in the wedding and to be the best ma'am and the wedding better and to be there to be included in that way. And just just to sort of even when we see the pictures now. Like I'm so glad I was there. And I can tell I'll confess it because I can see like there's a giant smile on my face. I'm like, and I think for me, that was definitely like where I really felt like I was soaking in it. And it was like It felt good. And it was like feeling included and feeling joyful. And it was all of our friends and, and like and I was right there in the wedding. So that's definitely one.

Unknown Speaker

I love a moment that's a bit almost kind of in reverse meaning that I was I was seeing that being modeled to me and but I think it's so important. It was so important to be on the receiving end to seeing that that was possible. And it happened where so I was starting I actually hadn't even starting dating this person, but it was something was building up and I was definitely developing feelings towards him. And it was a way so during that time, it was a long distance kind of acquainting. So I happen to to meet one of his partners almost like before kind of getting closer to him, but there was definitely a buildup happening. And she was aware of that. And so and we met and that was a that was, that was really my first true Metamora experience. And I was like, Well, how's that? How's that gonna be? What is he gonna think of me? Oh my god. And, and we met at an event and he was he was adorable. I mean, and at the end of the evening, I remember she, she came to me and she said, Oh, you're so cool. I'm so glad I met you. And I was like, Oh, my god, is this possible? And, and then, and so there was really like the beginning to really pierce the veil of saying, Oh, wow, it is possible to support each other as women, you know, loving the same man, oh, my God, it was amazing. And he was going to happen that soon after that, I was basically gonna meet with this man where he was and, and, and then when I was flying on my way there, and during that I was making a connection. And I was texting this woman and, and she basically text me like best wishes for the connection that I was going to have, have a great time. And I was like, Oh, my God, this is true. It happens. So this is this is possible. So I carry the moment. So during my heart, and there's been there have been, you know, many following that. But I think that that was very powerful left the real such a powerful blueprint, you know, that that? Yeah, this is what I want to experience, you know, supporting each other in that, in a way tapping into it, so much of reframing from a habit of scarcity that we have that if I have some I take away from someone else, and really seeing that the more, you know, experience of love adds to everyone. So but that was definitely that's definitely a favorite moment. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

I don't know if I have a favorite moment. These are great stories, it feels good. I'm really in love with joy. And I just like people to be happy and experiencing it. I mean, it's sincerely. There's probably too recently, one person was having some, like, communication issues with their primary partner. And we just started talking about just communication and connection and how to bring up things that we feel and we desire. And then they were using them. And they were like, Oh, this is working out so well. And we had such a great conversation the other day, and I feel so good about just being able to talk to you because then I'm going home and my primary partner and we're starting to like, you know, get out of that rod. And you know, and that feels really good. The second one is I'm not, I'm not really a voyeur. No one in here, who knows me should say something contrary to the fact. But I was I was at a party recently with someone who's maybe they're gonna be less than six months into polyamory and everything. And they had a just amazing sexual experience with someone who just popped up and was like, Hey, what's going on? And they came to me after maybe like you, you were just sitting there and you're laying there just smile in and I think at one point, you gave me a wink of era. And, and I had his biggest grin on my face. It was so it was so awesome. To see, but not the act of sex. Because you listen, you see when doggy style you see them all. But it was more the fact that this person was finally like flight fully realizing something today desired, like, wow, you know, I want to get out here and, and felt like well, I came to the party with without any. And it's great. Like it's fully supportive. I don't feel like I need to censor myself, I don't feel like I need to diminish myself and I can just be open. And that was what brought so much joy to my face, you know, not so much just saying it

Effy

feels very good.

Speaker 10

So I feel like I've been in this conversation for about a decade. And I've gone through these periods of being really curious and exploring it in small ways and then being really resistant. So I'm really grateful to be here. And kind of to piggyback off of the last question, I'm curious to hear of stories where you have had an experience of jealousy with a lover or a partner. And is it something that like, what is it like for you? Do you have an internal kind of coming to a resolution about it? Or is it something that you always share with the person that it came up with? I would just love to hear stories about that.

Unknown Speaker

That's certainly a super important question. And it's to me it i think i Long before getting into Paulie, I was having a habit of suppressing my jealousy and thinking, Oh, no, that's not cool. It doesn't have to show up. You know, you know, you're you're above that. And I think that's been what a great great learning experience to really change my relationship towards it, meaning, I want to feel that if it's there, I really want to make space for that. It's okay, you know, and I actually remind myself, I can't force myself into compassion, it's gonna arise naturally, as I as I, you know, the mind that shifts, but jealousy sometimes comes there for me. And I think it's such a different experience, probably for everyone. But for me, it comes up as usually as a very kind of gut feeling of fear, really fears like, oh, wow, something is going on. So I mean, I, because I have the habit of sensing and things come up very transparently. For me, I almost say like, when it happens, if someone is with me, they are gonna see that, you know, they're, it's almost going to be impossible not to notice that. So some, but, but the way I approach it is that, I just want to feel that, you know, make some space for that. So generally say something like, oh, wow, I'm feeling I'm feeling something, can you just slow down for a moment, and I'm noticing I'm, I've had some reaction to what you just shared with me. I just so you know, and for me, just I need to breathe through that feel, what is that telling me is it you know, and it can be many different things at times, it can be something related to a sense of self worth, it can be something related to a sense of safety, or trust or security. So the what to do next, with depends, but most really, most often, is about even just having that space that the person who's with me, can witness me in that place. And hold, it doesn't have he or she that they don't have to fix me, but just holding my hand for a moment that I'm having that moment of insecurity. And often when when we that, that kind of slowly melt dissipates. And so if we have one of my partners, these things that we say like tenderness alert, you know, before entering some conversation are you doing Are you in a space where you can hear that? And, and, you know, it's also about letting people because we're so used to, you know, maybe to guilt each other in some way, or you need to change something about what you're doing. And so sometimes, I need to spend some time to let people know, no, I'm not saying that it's your fault, or you know, not necessarily I mean, it may happen that somebody wants to change something, you know, but most often is really just, we're gonna have feelings, we're gonna trigger each other, you know, it's gonna happen, we're and so I can you just, can you just be with me there for a moment and see that pain? And then he goes, and if it doesn't go, I keep seeking, what what is it? That was the message? What's the message? I want to be able to feel that? Because if I don't feel that, I don't get the message. And I don't know what to do with that. Yeah.

Effy

And I find that if you don't get the message, it just gets louder. Exactly. Because it's his job is to be heard, like, the thing with their emotions, or their job is to be heard. And if you if you don't listen, it just gets louder, because it's just trying to be heard. And I think that's if you resist it persists idea. So I think and maybe

Unknown Speaker

one part that's important that I think in that is also once that comes up to then start discerning how much of that is, you know, coming from an actual situation that I'm seeing how much of that is coming from a story that I'm telling myself about that. And that also helps me navigate because sometimes I really realize that something is happening, but I'm telling myself that that's because I'm not enough, or that's because, you know, he doesn't care that's and so that about the story, I have a lot of power because I can I you know, I can change the story. I'm telling myself, if it's truly a behavior that I'm concerned about, then yeah, it may be need for a dialogue and maybe see if some change is needed. So I wanted to mention that.

Effy

My jealousy experience is similar. It kind of feels like fear. Mostly, I feel it mostly, like, pit of my stomach, right. And it's like a twisting motion. And I know it's enough. And I've experienced enough that I'm not afraid of it. So I just know what it is. I'm like, oh, here is and the story apart. Yeah, like, that's the thing. Like, okay, and the story part is where it resonates with you most in my household, we actually use the term I have a story in my head that so we will address the story we'll start the sentence with I have a story in my head that and then we will then share the story and what it allows us even if it means if you're saying something like I have a story in my head, that you don't care about me is very different than you don't care about me because the person has space to reflect on the story rather than feel they need to be defensive. But especially if they feel like they care about you deeply. And often in these situations, the other person is like, I love you, like, you know, and then that's, I mean, I work with people all the time. And I see this repeat over and over again. And a good hack that I give them is just address the story is a story. And it gives people space to be like, Okay, there's a story in the middle. Let's get curious about it. Why is it there? How it's showing up? Why is it showing up? You know, what's my part in it? Right? And then it can be addressed in that way. So often, for me, the sort of the way it goes is like, oh, feeling discomfort, or an exercise discomfort? What is the story? Then I then I actually go ahead and say I have a story in my head that that. And that's how sort of and then once you sort of address it, it dissipates really quickly for me, once you get it out, and the other person is like, huh, yeah, that sucks. That's a really shitty story, right? And you're like, yeah, it's a really shitty story. And then you can have that space to talk about it. And no one's getting defensive. No one's feeling not heard. So that's kind of how the jealousy thing goes up. shows up for me. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

I try to, like I said earlier, I really try to look at that feeling as envy. Because again, I think that envy is a useful feeling, and something that I can respond to, whereas jealousy is kind of like, I'm supposed to have this, I don't have this. That's bad. You know, there's kind of no conclusion or no, nothing to go off of from there. I've used to, I found I, I feel it most I used to feel it most with, like other men, like at parties, like, you know, like dating a girl that I'm interested in or, you know, like two girls on top of him at a party like, Man, I and then that's what I started to learn, like, this is something that I desire right now, now that I know, now I see that. And he, he helped me articulate that. I'm gonna set that up for next time. Right? That's a useful feeling. Now I can respond to that. The one the thing, the one time that I feel envy, that is harder to respond to is when I, for example, my partner has a boyfriend and like they're able to share love with each other. And I don't have that at the moment. And that's a bit harder to set up, right? It's really weird being like in a relationship looking for a relationship. That's very complicated and harder to fix. I don't really have a good answer or solution to that other than you know, it just supporting each other. And yeah, I don't know, again, like I said, with, in seven years with my primary, we've been through every sort of different structure as like, what the other relationships that we've had and what we both needed and been going through. And we're still exploring new things after seven years. So yeah, that's the that's the one difficult thing that comes up. But

Effy

it's an envy and envy and jealousy. And people are just like, sometimes it's sort of confusing. The way that I make the distinction is jealousy is I want what you have. Like, I want what Mitch, I want what you have an envy is I want that, too. So that's a good way to kind of think about it. Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Everyone? So instead of like, I want what you have, and I want, like, I want what you have, and I kind of want it and I don't want you to have it anymore. I wanted versus oh, I want that too. And that's that's kind of envy, you know?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. I'm glad you, you. You articulated that. Because I view jealousy as a coming from a place of lack. Like there's something missing in my life in different areas. Not my personal life, but someone's personal life that feels jealousy. No, I'm not serious. I've not felt jealousy. I don't think ever, I think I have felt insecurity in past monogamous relationships when I was much younger. But I don't feel jealousy. There's, there's times and I need and I say what I feel like I just comes up. So if someone says, Oh, me and Erica going into my face example, because it's not a real example. But let's just say, Oh, me and Erica go into whatever show, I'll just say, Oh, I'd love to go to that show. Right? And they'll go Oh, I'm sorry. And I'm like, no, no, I'm just saying I would love like to go to the show. Not that I don't want Eric to go to showing I don't want you to go to show with Eric. He just pops up so whatever it is pops up. I just kind of claim it. You know, as opposed to saying fuck Eric. Right? Right. Because that gives me that's that's that's just me. That's the jealousy, where you're like, Yo, fuck, Eric. Oh, before I was on the steps can go to show I hope. I hope the show gets canceled. So that to me that to me that is like some real jealousy as opposed to saying, you know, I feel like I'm missing out on something, right? Because there's no there's nothing else maybe for me, right? Because I know if I don't have a chance to go to this show, I can never go to the show, right? Because I'm relying so much on some someone else fulfilling holes in my relationships, right? Maybe I don't have a bet maybe I don't have good friends. Maybe I'm not building community. Maybe I don't feel unity with my housemates. Maybe I don't feel connected to my brother and my sister. I don't feel like I can reach out to anybody. Right. So I'm starting to feel insecure because the person that I feel like I need to be there for me, is fulfilling their life in many ways. Right? And I needed to step up. Okay, well, well, what's missing in my life? Why did why I'm I'm glomming on to this person's relationship. But you know, I yeah, I have nothing to add, because I, I really don't feel jealous.

Effy

I have a last question, unfortunately.

Speaker 11

Hi. So I'm a, I'm what you would call the pivot in a V formation I'm dating two partners I've been with and I love them both very dearly. I've been with one partner for over a year and a half. Now, she has a husband that they've been together for over 10 years. And my other partner I met in the past seven months, the one sitting next to me. And you know, in those seven months, we've negotiated to become primary partners. So my other partner is very supportive of this and is very consciously has been very vocal and supportive of this, but at the same time has been going through a lot of feelings, and feeling certain senses of loss. And even though our relationship is not necessarily it's not shrinking or access to each other, it's not changing, but there's still feelings that are coming up. And in me being the pivot and middle. I'm finding it sometimes difficult to figure out how much information about my two partners feelings, should I share with each other? Because this is sometimes the trigger some cycles of oh, well, why is she feeling upset, and then that triggers the other person to get upset, and then it creates a vicious cycle. So I've been trying to stop the cycle. And I think I've done a pretty good job and that we, we all had cocktails last week, and had like a nice sit down. And you know, everybody hashed it out. And I feel like that's progress. But how can I break the cycle? How can we break the cycle, and also facilitate a culture of conversion? And our little Polly cool,

Speaker 12

I'm sorry, can I also add to that? I think this cycle of like, her insecurity, kind of, like triggers me feeling threatened. And I actually, I don't think that I am feeling jealous at all. But I'm not necessarily and I have had feelings of conversion, definitely, between three of us. Generally, it involves rope, but I, I don't necessarily have the feeling of compulsion that I would like, or the particularly, let's say, like they have a day, I don't feel jealous that they're together, but I don't necessarily always feel like joyous about it. And I guess it's like, I for me, overcoming that, that that cycle that we're going through at the moment, I think that's kind of what's getting in the way of me feeling the compassion that I would

Unknown Speaker

like, I don't I don't know exactly what the relationship is between the three of you like, it's how close you feel together. I mean, sometimes, sometimes I'm just not feeling somebody. I mean, it wouldn't matter what they would do, they would they were not dating him. Sometimes I meet somebody, I'm just like, I'm just not really feeling this person. You know, I just whatever, I just don't connect with them. I can actually relate to part of the story. Don't pillow talk. So Pillow Talk is like, you have to, I think one of the things I would suggest doing is talking to partners about what they're comfortable with you sharing with another partner, and what they're comfortable with hearing. I'll give you a personal example. I was I didn't do that one time. And I was just kind of not complaining about somebody, but just talking about my inability to understand where things were going wrong in my communication with another person with someone else I was dating. And literally, there was pillows, right? So there was pillow talk. And they had not met yet. And I'm just like, I just don't understand. I'm like, you know, something's happening. compute something. I don't know everything, whatever. And I did that for probably too long, unconsciously. And then the partner I was with was like, I don't know, just don't ever introduce me to this person. And I was like, Oh, shit, right. But I didn't ask. And I ended up apologizing. I'm sorry, I didn't even ask if you okay with hearing about this. You know, I just dove right in because I'm like, Oh, I I care about this partner. I love them. I want to share with them. I want to talk to someone. And I just started going right. And I created a situation where it soured relationship. They didn't even have a chance. Right? Because they're individual outside of me. Right? Just because I'm, you know, I'm a hinge or linchpin or a V or whatever, regardless of what the term is, it doesn't mean that they're these people are not autonomous, and they don't have their own agency, they have a right to develop a relationship with each other, outside of me influencing that, right? They make liked each other more than they like me, you know, and that's fine. You're right. But I have to allow that to happen. So I think only the advice I would give you is ask, say, Hey, what are you okay with me sharing about our relationship with other people? And that person and give them space to answer, don't say, I need to know now, I gotta mean Uber's outside. Say, say, hey, I want you to think about it. You know, it's not necessary, I don't have to talk about it, I don't need to talk to them about it. Maybe find another friend. Call Eric. Talk, you know, a non biased person is always better, someone else says not emotionally attached relationship is better, just like you said, Now you don't feel the conversion, you want to feel, you know, sometimes I don't feel that I can record it. But anyway, sometimes you don't feel the how you want to feel, right. And that's, that's perfectly fine. So ya know, Pivotal.

Effy

Also, Compersion is something you cultivate, like it is, literally in Buddhism, like Buddha says, it's the hardest virtue to cultivate, you know. And it is not something that you just like, you know, I want to be competitive. And then you can pursue it, like you have to cultivate it, and not force it, and just see the joy just recognize the joy, or the lack of it without judging. I think that's the other part of it. And like, also investigate the story, right? What is what's in the what's the story that's in the way of you feeling the component that you want? Which is that that sort of made me think I was like, that's what I was thinking on? Like, what is the conversion that you want to feel like, it seems very specific. So if you're that specific, there's a story somewhere. So I would like look at the story of what's in the way. And also just realize it takes time takes time. It takes practice, it takes exposure, it takes your fears, like for me, it just needs the things in my head are scarier than the reality, like the stories I make up are always scarier than then what's happening, like, the jealousy I feel is always scarier in my head than it is in reality. So what I need is like exposure, like I need to face that fear, realize, it's not as scary as I think it is. And over time, it like calms down, and there's space for conversion. So like you guys are doing this, you're so new, the relationship is new, polyamory is new, and that particular dynamic, like you just need to give yourself some time to let those fears like collecting new data, you know, and let those fears, like face those fears. And eventually, they'll like, die down and there'll be space for conversion. So patience really, is what I would say. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker

I think it also, to me, it makes me think about two things. One, is that I, in my experience, say that, that that experience of conversion grows on a sense of the my needs matter. And that is kind of perceived and shared by all the people involved, like everyone's needs matter. And when a sense like that genuine interest, you know, we are, we want to find a way to support that is really something that that then kind of creates the ground without further genuine cooperation, but that but then creating the ground is it's not like a given, you know, like as if he said there's something of some deliberate cultivate cultivation, as you say. And and the other thing that was that was coming to mind was to really some, usually when I almost I want to say every experience of of jealousy to me or often reveals that I am kind of melting there. And I'd like to say that the my needs that I that I have with a specific person that I'm that I think it's supposed to meet them. So if I'm able to kind of step back and really because in my view needs I'm talking about really qualities of experience that I'd like to have. So if I'm able to kind of step back and get into that and into that perspective, okay, but there's this need and I can nurture that and and find ways to meet that independently or on also in other ways than that specific person that also helped me usually in you I sometimes experience jealousy when I guess when I'm too attached to my I call it my favorite strategy to meet that need. And it's great to have them because we have relationships for you know, for for you know, for that because they work well to meet our needs. But to be able to experience that I can still care and you know, meet that need in some way, then can allow me to let go a bit Have the maybe the expectations on on other people. You said something too? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

So, like I mentioned earlier, the, the labels become a little bit blurrier when you are able to date anyone in a way, the way that you described, you have a Wii now, right? But you guys are not primaries. So like I have a primary relationship, I kind of, if I were to describe the shape of all of our, let's say, it's a spiderweb, it's there's like, every, I have a relationship with every single person. I know, some are more serious, some are, you know, in transition, but the different people structure their relationships differently. Some are, like more anarchy about it. And you know, non primary, I've had a primary synth for seven years. And to me, it's always the shape has always been the two of us with every other relationship coming off of it. And again, there's some of them are W's or x's or, you know, some kind of Pentagon or crazy, crazy shapes. But I think what you need to look at in that is, what is that other part of the V? What is that connection point? And what does she need, and if she's feeling insecure, or like nervous about it, or it's because you're the other half of the Wii, the shape is changing. And that connection is changing in a way. And so I think you want to really just connect and make sure you're on the same page about what she needs and what you need from that relationship. Got, like I said, Because itself, it becomes very blurry, as you know, like, we're boyfriend and girlfriend and monogamous. And that's that, right? Well, as soon as it can be anything, then there's very, it becomes very difficult to articulate and define things. So the more you can kind of define what what she's needing from that. And then you can put the work into this other relationship, which congratulations on becoming primary, and and still keep that other one healthy. I think you want to work on both.

Effy

I know, we actually even overtime. So we do, you have to wrap up. Thank you so much. So I have a couple of announcements and a bunch of thank yous because there are a lot of people who work hard to make this, this happen. As of today, our Facebook group is now searchable for a while we're secret, so it was really hard to find it. But Facebook changed their privacy settings, which means we can have the group without revealing who's in it. So we still get to keep everyone's privacy comm and join the Facebook group. Conversation carries on there. Were there we watch it all the time. And I'm happy to to connect with you over there. Jackie, did you have something to add? Yeah, go

Jacqueline

to your point. Right. So we couldn't get to all the questions today. But if you have questions that didn't get answered, there are a few different ways you can get them answered. One is office hours on Thursdays, Fe is going to be the answering questions from the from the group. And so if you have a question, you can reach out via Facebook, you can reach out via Instagram, get us your question. She's an answer questions. And then also if you are supporting us via Patreon, there are opportunities for us to do Google Hangouts and to answer specific questions there. And we answer Patreon questions first. And so if we want to do that, so there are different ways for you to get in touch with us if you have more questions. Thank you.

Effy

Thank you, Jackie. And before we leave, I have a first and foremost thank you so much to my my panelists. Thank you so much. You guys are awesome. This wouldn't happen without you. So thank you very much. This episode was produced and edited by Thomas Kavner. Thanks for Deathstar composed our intro music. Special thanks to Jackie knees love Laura Holland and the new woman space in Brooklyn, New York. Until next time, stay curious. Stay curious, curious, curious. Thank you. Yes, stay curious. Stay curious.

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Relationships, Love, Jealousy&Compersion, non-monogamyCurious FoxJune 3, 2020jealousy, compersion, live