Ep 176: Trauma, Sense of Safety and the Somatic Connection with Rida Kirasi

How deeply does our perception of safety influence our behavior in relationships? What internal shifts transpire within our nervous system when we oscillate between feelings of security and threat? And, how can we nurture an environment that fosters safety and wellbeing?

In the third installment of our four-part series on trauma, we revisit a poignant episode where Effy and Jacqueline engage in an insightful discussion with Rida Kirasi, a sound healing therapist, meditation facilitator, and Somatic Experiencing practitioner. Together, they unravel the intricate tapestry of trauma healing, emphasizing the potent role of our bodily sensations and reactions. They delve into the transformative power of sound, breath, meditation, and embodiment practices as tools not only for healing but also for cultivating a robust sense of safety and emotional regulation.

To find out more about Rida Kirasi
Instagram: @soundalatherapy
Website: soundalatherapy.com

Connect with us on IG and more:
Curious Fox @wearecuriousfoxes
Effy Blue @coacheffyblue
Jacqueline Misla @jacquelinemisla

Email us or send a voice memo: listening@wearecuriousfoxes.com
Join the conversation: fb.com/WeAreCuriousFoxes

Support the show

TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue. Today, we are revisiting an important episode on somatic approaches to healing trauma and regaining a sense of calm and safety as part three of our four part series on trauma.

Jacqueline

In a modern world where we focus on our brains for productivity and personal growth, we're curious about the role that our bodies or the soma play in helping us self regulate when we're triggered or in the midst of relationship conflict. Our guide to this conversation is your dog crucial. That is a sound healing therapist, meditation facilitator and somatic experienced practitioner, a graduate of the British Academy of sound therapy for Tao follows a multi dimensional discipline that comprises sound healing, meditation, free movement experience, and somatic exploration on the groundwork of nervous system regulation. We're now published six sound healing and meditation albums so far, all of which are available online, she creates spaces where we can tap into our bodies, magical healing capabilities, and expand our toolbox for self healing, managing stress and self regulating the nervous system.

Effy

I've been working with people in sessions for around five years now. And after digging deeper into the core of their struggles, I keep coming down to the same place, a sense of safety, or their lack of in my personal journey of self exploration and healing. I arrived at the same place myself, how can I cultivate a sense of safety within I have eight years of talk therapy under my belt, and a pretty in depth understanding of an array of talk therapy modalities, which I use in my practice. However, over the last couple of years, I've come to realize I've hit the limits of what talk therapy can achieve. There is a massive somatic component to therapy, especially if you're trying to heal trauma, especially developmental or childhood trauma. The search for these other modalities of healing led me to movement first, you've heard me talk about five rhythms a bunch of times, and recently sound therapy, which led me to the brilliant and wise Rida.

Jacqueline

We dig into this and a lot more with Rida. And end the discussion with a short guided meditation. We hope that you enjoy the interview.

Effy

Good to have you with us. So nice to have you on the podcast. Welcome. Welcome. We have known each other for a little bit. Now I've come to some of your retreats. And what I love about your work is how you really focus on the body and the somatic experiencing and sound healing to really help with regulating the nervous system healing trauma, and really being connected to with our bodies. And I think that work is really, really important. All that to me leads into this idea of sense of safety in the body.

Rida Kirasi

Yeah, I totally agree that because my whole journey started with me and my anxieties, which brought me to the point that I thought I was trying to make my world a safe place. But I didn't know how to and that led me to meditation that led me to sound healing, and then it led me to somatic experiencing. So yes, I agree.

Effy

Yes, what you've just said immediately resonated with the witches that you were trying to make a world safe. And I think what we realize now is that actually safety or sense of safety comes from within. Right? Exactly. The effort is to try to control the world to make us feel safe. But I think it really starts with a sense of safety that is generated from within it. Like as soon as you said that, I was like that is that is the thing. Right?

Rida Kirasi

Exactly. And that actually was very striking for me because I realized that I was trying to make the world safe. And then of course I couldn't do that because it's not my under my control, which created more anxiety. So it was like a paradox. I was trying to calm my anxiety by controlling outside and it didn't just work so I had to go to and to the other direction by feeling safe within all and also containing my own emotions, and trying to regulate myself basically.

Jacqueline

And that's such a challenging moment that you've just described, I've experienced it. And there's a someone who I love in my family who is in the midst of anxiety now, and we are experiencing with them, where they both feel tremendous sense of fear and anxiety, and understand that nothing is triggering them, that nothing in their external environment is creating that. And yet they feel that deeply. And it is challenging. Certainly, I've been in that position, but also watching someone that you love. And you want to say everything is okay, everything's okay, we're gonna be okay. And they can't feel that. But in their minds, they also know that is true. Yeah. And that is so difficult to like, be of those two minds.

Rida Kirasi

Yeah. And I remember having my best friends telling me maybe 10,000 times, and I asked them to please can you tell me that everything is okay. And everything's gonna pass. But then after all those years, I realized that I was not able to embody that information. So hearing that when the body doesn't hear it, it doesn't go to the nervous system, let's, let's put it in a very easy way. And that I was not just convinced, after two minutes, my body was sending my brain this sense of signals that I was not safe. So I just had to repeat it over and over again. And then I realized that I have to change how I feel in the body. So I totally understand that talking at those moments, especially in anxiety, it's it really doesn't work. It didn't work for me. No,

Effy

yes. And you see this in relationships, too, right? You'll you'll get a partner that that is asking, like telling me, it's okay, tell me, you're not going to leave me Tell me, you know, we're going to be okay telling me you love me. Or she reassured me reassure me. And we know that it might work for those a couple of minutes, it might just like, be effective five minutes, but immediately it dissipates. And the need to get reassured again, pucks back again, and I think it's the same loop. Right?

Rida Kirasi

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Jacqueline

I remember once I was having a conversation with Effie, and it was in the midst of a relationship challenge. And I was emotional, and and I was feeling anxious. And she was saying you really eat there's some tension in your body that you need to work out. And I was like, Yes, that's true. I'm going to read an article, you're right, I'm going to talk to somebody, I'm going to face it, you cannot solve a body problem with a brain solution.

That was like, fair, fair, fair. And so that's what it sounds like we're saying is that even if your mind understands, if that is held in your body, your body will be sending your mind messages saying don't listen to anything else, telling you that we are under attack?

Effy

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's start from the beginning with that, I'd love for you to tell us what happens in the nervous system, when we feel safe or unsafe, like what is actually happening is in our physical body, when you feeling safe versus unsafe.

Rida Kirasi

So if we are somewhere and then we see a line, for example, who might kind of haunt us, right? The first thing that happens in our body is that is the sympathetic arousal that is called. And then the body tries to protect us to keep us alive. And then it secretes some hormones called cortisol, adrenaline, and all that actually, what happens in the body and in the nervous system is that we get into fight, flight or freeze. And that is very good that to keep us alive. The thing that we need to complete in the nervous system cell sense is that when we get that arrows, we need to also go back to the parasympathetic nervous system, which is called the resilience of our nervous system. So it needs to go down and cool down and release all that tension that was in the body. This is very good thing that we do if we have time. Time is very important here. But usually under attacks or like car accidents, or like in a relationship, when we hear something and we are in the party, for example, we don't have time to digest all that. It sticks with within our nervous system. And if we don't have time, if we don't open a space for that, the body cannot just release all that energy out. And this is what Peter Levine found somatic experiencing with because he studied the nervous system of animals. And he realized that even though they were faced against life threatening situations more than we do, they don't show any pause. traumatic stress symptoms. And then he realized that because they were resolving all that by shaking by trembling, and we don't do that, because life is very fast, we don't have time for that. We don't know how to because all we were thought is to be clever. I mean, in the mind, solving things with the mind as if the body is not that important. And it's just a place of being beautiful or functioning or whatever. Not that it has intelligence itself. And yet, it has an amazing intelligence, and we can learn from it. So what happens in the nervous system is, when we face a threat, the nervous system tries to keep us alive. And the moment of oh, that's over. Realizing it's sensing it, I'm not just saying, realizing from the mind, but sensing that, that's, now I'm safe, then the cycle is complete, and we are more open to engage in life. Otherwise, our all energy goes to the resistance we have inside. And we just don't have the energy to engage outside and with life and with the with relationships. And Steven Porges, who found the polyvagal vagal theory said that it's very interesting that when we spend all our energy in fight or flight, we don't have energy to engage with other people. So relationships, if we know how to regulate ourselves, we can have more easy, we can do more easy in relationships.

Jacqueline

There are two things that you said that really just struck me one is, I think so I've always understood and or known, we can hold things in our body. The way that you've just described it to say there's this rush of adrenaline that happens there, all these chemicals, and there is not a wind down those chemicals just stay there there theory come, they get stuck somewhere inside of your body that actually connects to me more than I have understood it before. I think I understood it in like a woowoo way like we hold on to things. What I hear you saying is no no, actually, there are things that happen in your body. And if you don't go to through a cycle of releasing them, they get trapped in your body. And that toxicity, there's something there that will continue to impact how you show up in your physical body. So I appreciate that explanation. Because I think I'm seeing that really differently. I think the other thing that stands out to me is you mentioned that we are culture does not necessarily allow for us to go through that process. And often when you're feeling fear and anxiety, particularly if people around you are saying it's okay, it's okay. You are disguising the fact that you are feeling that level of stress. So not only are you not going through the cycle, you are actually putting more stress and anxiety on yourself by trying to pretend that you're not in any stress or anxiety. And so you may look calm, but you're actually creating more internal damage by not feeling the thing and going through the cycle of feeling nothing.

Rida Kirasi

Exactly. And people who have gone through or still is through anxiety knows that having anxiety of having an anxiety becomes more of a problem when you have anxiety, because you're anxious of getting anxious. And that is a loop. Yeah,

Effy

yes, exactly. And in anticipation of anxiety is anxiety, right? Oh, I'm gonna get anxious, we'll set off your anxiety. It is horrible, vicious loop of kind of peaking and staying at that peak, and not being able to come down from it. And I think over time, this is my understanding of it. Your nervous system kind of gets used to that high right?

Rida Kirasi

Yes, exactly. And the body adapts to that because if you think that you're constantly under stress your muscles listen to it and then at some point your neck muscles or here could tense because what happens with us is what if we say a line our body gets tense, right? Because it prepares itself to fight or flight and then if you don't realize that the threat is over and you then the muscles keep tense so yes, it's very important to us in somatic experiencing in private sessions, we really work on the moments that it passed. Because usually for example, an earthquake we know that it's over and it passed but if we I'm not saying realizing it with the mind but realizing it with the body giving time to body to really understand all that over. And then it comes the next emotions that were suppressed so to say when when when realizing that it's over. And I found when I was training thing. I thought like what, of course, I know when an earthquake is over, right? So like, what are you really talking about? But then I saw in my private sessions, when I was taking sessions, I realized that sometimes a small procedure like a dental, I didn't really realize that my kind of my chin didn't realize that it was over. It was too fast it happened. But I didn't really sense that, oh, it's finished. I'm not there anymore. And it's very interesting, because it's also in the shamanic practices, that they're talking about the same thing. And I'm very surprised that Somatic Experiencing was mentioning this a lot. So this is very important. I think that we're what we're talking now.

Effy

So I think that's fascinating to me. And I totally agree with you that your mind and your I can speak for myself. And I think Jackie and I share this as well that we can be disembodied people, we live in our heads, we're thinkers, and we're good at thinking. So we do the thing that we're good at, right? We think and sometimes you overdo it, we overthink. And we try to problem solve through more thinking, you know, the problems that are caused by our thinking, we try to problem solve by thinking more and getting more and more disconnected from our bodies. So intellectually, I understand what you're saying, which is your mind might be like, Yep, this is over. I'm out the other side, but you might your body's not hasn't got the memo, right. I'm curious, what are some of the ways that that idea really resonates with me? Like, I know, I my buddy does that. I'm curious to what are some of the ways that people can notice that's what they're doing, right? I mean, we've done so much work on this. So I know, this is how my body works. What are some of the ways that our listeners can be like, oh, like, that's what happens to me as well, like, what are the signs that they might not be allowing their body to catch up with their with their thoughts,

Rida Kirasi

thinking really fast, and not hearing the body needs is a perfect example, that we are not really listening to the body's messages, even small things. And I think they're very big things though, they, they sound small, but like feeling hunger, feeling fullness, feeling cold, feeling warm, these are very important things that we usually don't give attendance to. And they're very important actually, and, or feeling the ground. Sometimes it takes five or six sessions with someone to just feel the chair they're sitting in, they know that they're sitting in the chair, but the body doesn't really let itself feeling the support of the chair. Because it just doesn't trust anything, the mind doesn't trust the chair and say, Oh, this is something that really supports me so I can let go I can, I can relax a little bit. It doesn't say that. So the body doesn't let so listening to the body listening to the how tense I am listening to, oh, this is a nice moment, and I'm relaxing. How do I sense that in the body? Because I realized after all this work, are words like we do, we're talking now is very good vehicles of communication and the mind, whereas the bodies we call is, is sensations. So if I say I'm safe, but I don't feel it, I don't sense safety in the body, then it's not connected. So what I can suggest this, oh, I'm very happy. This moment is very beautiful. How do I sense that in the body asking that and giving some time to feel that in the body, if I really, I can really take it in would be a great meditation, a great communication that we can work on. That's what I think.

Jacqueline

Yeah, that makes sense to me. I think for me, I can feel that I have I'm still holding on even if my brain thinks I've let it go. When I realized that I have stopped breathing. When I like realized that I'm like, had been holding my breath this whole time or my chin. As you mentioned, my jaw is still clenched and tight, or my shoulders are up, or my partner will reach out to you know, to touch me and my body like flinches and pulls away. Like I'm not aware of my tightness in my rigidity, until I become aware of it until at some point I like gasp for air and realize or my shoulders are in pain, and I realized that they're up in the air where I realized like, Oh, I'm still I thought that I was fine. I've moved on in my mind, but my body has not moved on.

Effy

Yes, totally. I think the pieces about what you've just said about like not feeling cold, not feeling hot, not feeling hunger. I can you know, I definitely don't feel my hunger until suddenly I'm absolutely famished and I can like eat my own arm. Because I like I haven't been eating for the entire day yet or I hold my pee. Like that's, that's a that's something that I'm trying so hard not to do. I'll be like, by the time peeing, I could just be bursting, you know? And God forbid, like someone's in the bathroom like banging on. Get out now, you know, it's because I've just I'm so I can get to a place when I'm if I'm not careful, so disconnected from my body that I'm not aware of my bodily functions and I think, right you're just like even realizing that is a good place to start.

Jacqueline

Yeah, question for you it's so in the example that you gave, there's a lion chasing us and we get away from the lion and we're like, We're safe now. That feels like a real threat. We are experiencing something that is endangering our life. We see when it's there. We see when it's gone. Yeah, in relationship, it is harder to see the actual threat or to know of its real threat versus perceived danger. Yeah. And so I'm wondering then, if it is perceived danger in our minds? Number one, how, how can we distinguish that for ourselves? But number two, when do you know it's over? When do you know that the metaphorical lion has left and that we're now safe? Yeah,

Effy

yeah, actually, I want to ask that question. Because I'm interested in exactly that. what's real, what's perceived? And what's physical versus emotional danger, like a lion is very much a physical danger, like it's gonna come and eat me. I think these days, not many of us get to deal with lions, right? Which is a good thing. So I'm really interested in difference between, like Jackie said, the real danger, perceived danger, physical danger and emotional danger, like, how are they different in all of this? Are they at all actually?

Rida Kirasi

Well, if your body feels that it's under danger, that is a danger. If it gives a reaction of a danger, then you perceive it as a danger. And what we talk about anxiety is, the person feels anxious or gets panicked, and that is a danger. And for someone else, it's not a danger. And that's why talking about it, it's not important because that person feels the danger. So the perceived threat here is the body feeling that it is under danger. So a perceived threat means there is no real danger of a life threatening situation. But for example, are my partner doesn't answer the phone. And then I get an anxiety attack, that is a perceived threat, because I feel like Oh, my God, something bad is going to happen. And I cannot regulate that. And then I make up scenarios in my mind. So I keep that. So why do mindfulness practices and somatic experiencing, it helps us to get aware and the body listening to the body, it actually is working also on our awareness that we realize, Oh, that is a phone that's not being answered. And it's not a lion, who's going to haunt me in 10 seconds. So even differentiating that, and letting the body feel that kind of changes, how the nervous system thinks or feels or how the body feels. And therefore, it's very important to know how the body reactions are, and then how to know, it's very important to be aware of what is happening in my body. Now, do I feel something as a perceived threat? How do I know that if I'm holding my breath, if my if the heart starts to pump faster, so if I give reactions of a perceived threat, that means there's something triggering, and there is ringing awareness to that would really help. And the perceived threat means therefore emotional threat could be an answered phone. For the other one, it could be abandonment, or I mean, it could be all that so there is no real explanation for what the threat is. But what the person perceives as a threat is a threat. And maybe it could be worked on. So how do I react to kind of threats in my life? Because if I have issues with my I mean, 90% is that right? In relationships, we bring our baggage to the relationship, and then we kind of the relationship is a great mirror to us to see ourselves. So if we have an issue that has been unresolved, we probably will carry into our relationship because we carry it in our nervous system. So it's, we cannot escape from it because we have it with us within us.

Jacqueline

You know, it's interesting that also that you use that example because that happened to me a few days ago where I was trying to get in touch with my wife, and she didn't pick up the phone. And that's not uncommon like we will go away for hours at a time via and out of reach because we're working or something but she had an appointment and the person who she had appointment with reached out to me and said I'm reaching out to her and I can't get in touch. So I reached out to her I couldn't get in touch. And within a matter of five minutes, I went from Hey, can you give me a call, too? Are you there too? I'm on my way home. And like, had had like, like, escalated to panic, like flying to the train station to go to, she calls me and he's like, no, no, I'm here. I'm here. I just had my phone down. And at first of course, I'm, I'm I feel relieved, then I feel furious. And then I just start weeping like it, like, hit me. And she's like, it's okay. Like, I've been gone for longer than this. You know, I'm okay. It's okay. And I'm like, no, no, you're right. You're right. And so I like pull myself together, stop crying. But I realized that in the coming days, a commercial will come up and I'll start crying, or someone will tell me something, and I'll start crying. And I was thinking to myself, like, I checked my app. I wasn't, I wasn't going to get my period. Right. I like check all the things. Like why am I crying so much? As you're saying this, I think to myself, Oh, I stopped myself from fully letting go. And it held in my body. Yeah. And so any opportunity that my body got to try to release it, it was trying to release it? Because I had not just said, Oh, there's the fear. There's the relief, like let's let it all out. And I was holding on to it all week.

Rida Kirasi

Yeah. Amazing. What you just said, a great example. Thank you.

Effy

These kinds of panics as well, especially within the relationship, what I what I noticed from working with people is that more often than not, it'll boil down to a fear of abandonment, which I think on a nervous system level, honestly feels like death. Right? Because we know that, you know, at a very young age, when we're when we're born, love, safety, love and safety are connected to one another, right? Because our parents keep us safe. Because they, because they love us. It's it's not the love that, you know, we talk about of chocolates and, and roses, but that evolutionary love that really keeps us connected to one another. And I think when we're in an adult relationship, when that that fear of abandonment gets gets triggered, it really feels like actual death. So some of those like emotional threats or things that the emotional dangers, really do feel like almost like physical like, aligns about the attack me, right. Yeah,

Rida Kirasi

exactly. And that's the point. Because, yes, the attachment and the early childhood, is kind of like the basis of our nervous system. And therefore in somatic experiencing, or in other our other therapeutic tools. It's very important to work on that early childhood times. Because when something is not completed there, and of course, we were kids, and we didn't know how to complete a cycle, we need the other to regulate us, we need the other to contain us, we need other to say, oh, it's gone, it's over, we are safe. Our nervous system gets trained, how to self regulate, and how to feel, come back to yourself. And if we didn't have that chance, we have to learn it when we are older. But still we can get triggered when we face a threat like that. And that kind of big bursts are usually could be signs of weary are very early times that our nervous system didn't have time to release in somatic experiencing, then we how we don't assume. But usually, it's always a good thing to ask, is this. Is this the first time I'm sensing this? Because usually the answer is no. Because the body remembers in our mind, we does we don't remember but the body remembers. And when we say do I remember the first time if I felt this maybe it was in the elementary school where our teacher didn't answer our question. It might sound very little for up for us, grownups, but for that nervous system, it was a big deal. And it was triggering the abandonment. So maybe we can then find Oh, this is actually connected might be connected to that time. And then working on on that time to release what was incomplete and get it out the system, so to say to open a new place. Yeah,

Effy

that's, it's like I know this stuff. I work in this stuff personally, and with clients, yet it continues to fascinate me how that our early childhood experiences just stick around and become the blueprint of the way that we live our lives here. And if we don't go back and, and like you said, complete some of these circles are really addressed that stuff. It affects everything from our sense of well being all the way to the integrity and the integrity of our relationships and the joy that we feel in the world. So it's so so so important. So what can we do? What are some of the things that we can do as adults? That can promote an inner sense of safety. That's not something that we're asking for other people to help us regulate us are looking to control our environment, so we feel safe. But how do we promote that inner sense of safety?

Rida Kirasi

I think it starts with how do I feel safe in the body, because everyone has a different way of sensing safety. Some feel safe in the sessions, for example, when they have a pillow behind their back, and then that brings this sense of safety, while some other people feel when they wrap themselves in a blanket, and they feel contained. That brings us a safety. I think the starting point here is what things helped me feel safe. For example, if it's being together with with a loved one and having them listen to me, how do I sense that in the body? It's like feeding the nervous system by using the sensations. So actually, a good start is what safe means to me. How would that feel? Is there any part in my body that feels safe at the moment, maybe the tip of my nose feel safe. So how does that feel in the body now, when I say my tip of my nose feel safe, so feeling that let it sink in the nervous system. So to say by sensing it, it helps us to develop a sense of safety. And then if we do that, then we can know when we start to feel unsafe. I realized years after that traffic sounds and the CD sounds made me anxious. I didn't really realize that for a long, long time, I thought it was exciting me. And then I learned the difference between excitement and anxiety, I realized that I was actually very confusing them both. I thought anxious, things were exciting and exciting things could make me anxious. And I just didn't really understand why bird, my birthdays were always a mess. Because it was exciting me. And then I couldn't contain that excitement. And it turned to anxiety, and being heartbroken at the end, of course, because I couldn't really contain that emotion. So if we know how to how we're feeling safe in the body, then we can realize where we are feeling unsafe. And then we can start to help us regulate ourselves, like, oh, I can feel my jaw tensing, I can feel my shoulders tensing. And I know, if I don't do anything, at some point, my body will start to react. So maybe realizing that

Jacqueline

I'm wondering if you can, if you can talk more about distinguishing between anxiety and anxiousness. That feels, there's two things that come to my mind immediately. One is my daughter has lots of anxiety. And she knows if she gets too excited, like joyful, she will actually have to know to temper down her career excitement, because it could lead to her feeling anxious if she is too excited. And I'm thinking about folks who are in relationships that from the from the outside look real, toxic and chaotic. But inside of it, they think it's a whirlwind of excitement and energy. And so how does one How did you go through the process for yourself of distinguishing between, I am anxious, and I'm excited. And these inherently lead to another Yeah,

Rida Kirasi

I realized when I was sensing excitement in the body, I just realized when I was staying with it, I just realized it started to turn into an anxiety in my stomach and I was like, What is going on here, and I was in my Somatic Experiencing session. So my practitioner said slow down here. And let's just say go a little bit back and sense the excitement. And then I realized the points where it turned my body was mixing because it didn't know how to distinguish between that and I really cement I love Somatic Experiencing because it's a very beautiful way of of training the nervous system and the body and uncoupling the over coupled concepts and ideas. And then I really started to feel what is excitement regulating myself before getting, as I said, the arrows all comes and then it has to go down. I just didn't know it was just going up, up, up, up, up up. I couldn't know where to stop. Because it was It is a story of my childhood. So I didn't know how to regulate myself. So the anxiety is a sympathetic arousal sort of to say which is nice because that's what we get aroused in while we're having sex. So it's like it's the same that it goes up the nervous system it excites it. If the nervous system thing doesn't know how to regulate or confuses it with anxiety, even a beautiful one to sexual intercourse can turn into an anxiety as well. It's the same because it's the nervous system has to distinct distinguish them. And how do we do that by sensing it. And I sensed in a session that Oh, excitement, I can stay with that I contained it. And then I worked on the anxiety. And then it's magical, because once I pointed that out, in real life, I started to see oh, this is actually getting anxious, like putting three different meetings in a row. It's exciting, but actually, no, it's not exciting anymore, I realized that it's actually gonna make me anxious. It gives me a false sense of Yeah, you did good today, you accomplished but actually, it was getting me anxious.

Jacqueline

That's interesting.

Effy

Absolutely. I think that's such an important distinction. I think this maps on to relationships that have periodic drama, when people seek drama in relationships, if they haven't figured out what's going on with them on a nervous system level, if they haven't, if they're not attuned, maybe within the relationship with with one another, that in an effort to seek excitement, that, that there cause drama, that it is, it is a way to kind of feel alive in the relationship rather than rather than doing it through connection. Rather than doing it through, like healthy, you know, sex, I'm not getting those you kind of just like cause drama, cause cause arguments, provoke the other person lose your own temper, and that that excitement, that arousal on some level that's perceived that you know, this relationship is still alive?

Jacqueline

Can I asked for? So what does this look like in a practical example? So I imagine, so imagine someone is in the midst of conflict with a parent with a partner with their child, and they can feel themselves getting right, their energy coming up, they're aroused, they're excited, they're at their most anxiety. And actually, what you said earlier, stuck with me as well, where I am feeling a sense of threat. And so I am showing up that way. But the person who I'm arguing with may not be feeling that sense of there. So they're looking at me, like what is wrong with you? Right, I have been on the other side of that look, many a time of the calm down. I'm not sure what's happening here. But this, you need to relax. And then first, it actually makes me even more anxious and furious, right? Because I feel like I know, I'm not crazy, I am feeling this thing. And your face, and your words are telling me I shouldn't be feeling it, but I am. So it gets bigger and their eyes get bigger. I'm wondering in that moment, when you find yourself in that situation of of being feeling threatened and reacting from that place? How do you a regulated nervous system? And then the second piece is then how do you acknowledge the threat is over? And what's a ritual or, you know, to like, let that go to release?

Rida Kirasi

Yeah, I It's an amazing thing to have a self regulation toolbox. And I think that is something that I think that should be thought in elementary school, right? Yeah. We have, we had to, we have to learn because this is the basis of everything. And yet, I mean, yeah, we tend to get regulated with other stuff that is sometimes not healthy. But actually we need to learn that and and when you say that when we get when we realize that we are getting tense, it's a very good thing to know your resources and the toolbox of regulation. And it might change for every everyone else but for me, I I really an I might look very stupid and crazy from outside, but I really take time to feel the earth and then I look around to see okay, is that does that is there anything that looks calm and good around here, and then I connect with it, because I know that I perceive that person as a lion and I just lock my whole thing and I want to win that conversation. You know, I want to I want to be the right one. And just zooming out of that coming back to my body. It is in my toolbox. The other thing that also Peter Levine's a lot talks about is self touch. Because we kind of when we get into the flight or fight mode, we we don't sense the whole body and we don't we are not relaxed. So I usually use self touch but especially touching the jaw touching the neck, touching the body and feel Feeling that, oh, I'm here, I'm okay. And I'm touching. And that usually calms me down. And then it comes deep breath. And we see it in somatic sessions that we don't force it. But it comes when we start to down regulate, when we start to calm down, that breath comes and then we can slow it down. And usually, after we have the fight, after we discharge by like re yelling, or I don't know, then we have a sense of calmness, like, Why did I do that? Like, what just happens? Sounds crazy. Because after we release all that, it sounds crazy, it looks crazy. And so having a self regulation toolbox is I think, is very important. And what I have been giving examples could not work for everyone, because everyone is a different person. And they have a different regulations system. Some of my clients, they do breath, they hold their breath, and then they let it out for a longer time, which actually imitating the parasympathetic nervous system states where we are more relaxed, we actually get exhale longer. So they do it a couple of times, and they say it works. Great. I don't use that. But I'm more of a body person. So I touch my body, and sometimes go wash with a cold water. And we know all this actually, but we just don't remember to do it. Because we are not aware that we are actually getting triggered. That's the point. We know how to regulate ourselves. We all have some ways, but we just don't know it until we lose it. So that's why awareness of the body is very important to feel oh, I'm tensing. Oh, interesting. I want to fight.

Jacqueline

Yeah, it makes me think about what you've shared regarding animals, and how afterwards they shake to like, get it out. And that's why they're not holding on to it. And I think one of the things that you notice that you named that is true for me is that embarrassment might actually be the thing that is stopping me from self regulation, that doing the touching, doing the breathing, doing the particularly if number one in front of someone else to calm myself, but even on my own, I may think this is silly, this is fine, there is nothing wrong, calm down, like trying to use my mind to regulate my body. And I think that's one of my takeaways is that if we are if we're leaning on, or if we are concerned about being embarrassed, then that is going to prevent us from doing the things that we need to do making the sounds doing the touch, having the breath, the work that we need to do in order to be calm. So what I'm hearing is I need to separate myself from conflict, take a few minutes to do all the weird looking and sounding things that need to happen for me to calm down in order for me then to come back and be more present in that conversation.

Rida Kirasi

Yeah. And some sometimes when I'm in the middle of a meeting, for example, and I get triggered for some reason, I it doesn't look weird outside, but I scan my body to see is there any molecule in my body, which is a somatic experiencing tool? Is there any molecule in my body that feels content and safe, and usually even have a middle of a crisis? For example, I have a two year old son, and when he has a fewer, and he's very sick, it's it's really triggering. I want to like do something and I just can't. And at that moment, even in that moment, which is very triggering for me, I asked, I asked myself, is there any molecule in my body that feels safe, and I usually I never had a time where I said no. Like, I feel that my for example, hands are calm. And then I bring all my awareness to my hands, feeling the calmness, even though I'm still having the anxiety and feeling the calms in my hand sensing it is like feeding the parasympathetic nervous system and helping the other parts of my body to oh, there is a still safe part in my body. That's good. And actually, it's very, I stopped snapping out so to say after I started doing somatic work as I can be grounded in a safe place in my body. So whatever happens, I might get affected by it, but knowing that I can contain it or get some help, I think it's a very good thing to help us stay in calm.

Effy

Just hearing this information for me. One, it kind of affirms that I'm not crazy. And also firms that I'm the work that I'm doing is exactly what I need for me that I need to go in from the body. Because you know, I've been going through the mind for for many, many years, and I feel like I've done that work. And I think a lot of that gets sort of stuck in my body and when I was hearing you say like there is always a part of my body that feels safe, you know, that also makes me think, oh, I need to, like open my mind to the idea of like, both of those things can happen at the same time, I can be soaking in anxiety, I could be, you know, I could feel like, you know, every fiber of my being is overwhelmed by fear. That doesn't mean to say that I can't find a molecule that might just feel safe. Like to have that open mind to be like, both of those things can be true, you know that a part of my body, my mind can be anxious, but somewhere in my body, I can find calmness. And that just being allowing for that to happen. I think that was that was like I was reflecting on that. And I was like, yeah. And the other piece is just appreciating the times where I've been in situations where I was allowed to, let's say aloud that it was okay for me to like, get up and start pacing or move or stretch, while I'm trying to problem solve. While I'm trying to have a difficult conversation with somebody that that it isn't it doesn't have to happen on the couch. It doesn't have to happen on a chair. I think if you were having difficult conversations, like allowing mobility, allowing people to stretch to move from one chair to another, maybe not even allowing, but like making yourself like you don't have to sit in and be in one place, how difficult conversations but to move around to be in your body to feel your feet while you're doing that. And having both of those things happen at the time, I think can also really help.

Jacqueline

I think the one thing that that you said that resonates also is the distinction between what I think I've been trying to do, which is calming myself down, versus expanding the calm that already exists in my body. Yeah, those are two different I think one was like, I'm focusing on the anxiety and trying to release or squash down the anxiety. The other is finding the calm and focusing on the calm and expanding that out.

Rida Kirasi

That's a great uncoupling. That's amazing. Yeah. Beautiful. Isn't it isn't a beautiful to fit to think that the calmness even is in yourself already. Just finding that instead of fighting, resisting to something and try to reach to something. I think that is a very good differentiation.

Effy

Yeah, yeah, here's an honor honoring that your safety is within you know, that's the other piece is like you're honoring your anxiety, you're like, yep, rather than trying to suppressing it, changing it, you're like you're honoring the feelings. And then you're finding the calm and let it expand into into like holding it all. So yeah,

Jacqueline

I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about your work with sound, because one of the things that I realize is that when I'm in an anxious space, I often can't stand the silence, which is probably what I need. And instead, I go to tick tock, I go to a podcast, I go to something, to hear something just to distract myself from the sound of what's happening in my mind. But essentially, I'm going from big energy to another thing that's continuing to have big energy. And I'm wondering if you can talk about the power of sound and your work in particular around leveraging that to help us calm.

Rida Kirasi

Yeah, very nice thing that you mentioned, my journey led me to sound because I couldn't stand silence. And it led me to sound because I realized, after years of therapy, I realized that I needed to do something daily basis to help myself. And that was meditation. But I tried many forms of meditation, I got meditation training, and I found it, the best thing to meditate with for me was sound. And then I wanted to learn why sound is very powerful for meditation. And then I went to the British Academy of sound therapy. And there I learned the science of sound and meditation. And I realized that when I was anxious, my brain was probably was in the beta states. And it could be measured in hertz. So with EEG, and the sound, healing uses the instruments that imitates when your brain is in meditation, which is the alpha or theta, so they actually imitates that sound waves. And after eight or 12 minutes, it helps you to entrain to that place of being meditated without a lot of efforts. So I loved this, the science behind it. And then I started to use it in my work and then I started to work as a practitioner of sound therapy. And that led me to Somatic Experiencing because I realized without the words without using the words because I think even now as I talk, you are understanding it or when you're talking I understand the words you're saying with my perception so I can't really understand you. And I realized that the sound can reach to places that the mind my mind would not be able to reach, for example, a sound just resonated with a feeling that I was suppressing. And then I started crying, for example, and I was like, What is going on? It was very deep. And then it led me somatic to Somatic Experiencing because I realized when I was doing sound therapy sessions, I realized people remembering stuff that they were not remembering, or that they had visions about things that happened. Or they were trembling that like the deer escaping from the bear. And I actually taught it to my mentor, and she told me about somatic experiencing. And that is also reaching to the intelligence of the nervous system. And the sound also takes us there because, and we talked about the early childhood, and at those times, we didn't know words. So I also find very interesting is, the sound using the sounds listening to sounds, is also a very good vehicle to take us there. This is my experience.

Effy

Yeah, actually, quick interlude that I wanted to point out about sound and not having sound when you're younger. Something that I've recently been talking thinking about a lot is, I did most of my therapy in English, which is different than my mother tongue. And a lot of my developmental years happened in my mother tongue. So I have recently been thinking about whether the therapy that I've been doing in English been reaching to the right layers, and whether whether there's something to be said about doing the therapy in your mother tongue, or the language that you were using during the time that you're you're trying to deal with. So that's something that's actually been on my mind. And from what I've heard from you, you can bypass all of that and do some sound therapy, that can really extend beyond language and get to the get to the nervous system get to the subconscious, to where those things live in, in story and in pictures, and not necessarily in language. So that's actually been on my mind a lot. And hearing you say that is now kind of connecting the dots. I'm interested in exploring options that are beyond language. And also maybe the reason why things like movement therapy have always worked for me. And when I you know, when I came to your retreat, the sound healing again, I feel like it was reaching to a place that I haven't been that I wasn't able to get to. And the question is always is, is it a language issue? You know, not a fluent, not a language issue in terms of fluency, but language issue, in terms of the experiences are in a different language. It's almost like living those with subtitles, you know? So that's kind of been on my mind. And now what I'm hearing you say that I'm like, Hmm, okay, maybe there's something to be something to work out there. Yeah. Do you think you can give us a taste of what it would be like to have kind of that grounding in the body through sort of a mini mini meditation and mini sort of guided tour of our nervous system?

Rida Kirasi

Yeah. I mean, we can just we can just explore it now, to see how how we feel. I see that both of you are sitting, people who are listening to this should not try to do this while driving. Have to say that?

Effy

Yes, no, absolutely, yes. We can just start to feel

Rida Kirasi

or bring our awareness to where we touch the ground. So if you were standing, it would be the soles of our feet. And since three of us sitting here, we can bring all our our awareness to our hips, and the sitting bones

and just trying to feel the relationship between the ground the chair or wherever we're sitting, and the muscles of our hips. So they're touching each other. Our hips are touching the surface we're sitting on. The place we're sitting on is touching the hips. And just realizing if we're bringing our awareness to this relationship, does anything shift or change in the hips? The muscles in the hips the pelvis, pelvic muscles. We can also imagine saying to the cells in our hips, that oh, there's nowhere to go now. Where where we

should be

and you can relax. What happens in the body when When we say that when we think about that in the hips

and maybe move our awareness to if we're, if we have anything that supports in our back, feeling the support at the back of our body. And feel that support. And just being curious about what shifts in my body, when I feel the support of the ground, have in place, I'm sitting on the support in the back, what happens. And I just realized now in my arms, I feel like a wave of relaxing, I can feel my shoulders, letting go a little bit. So just sensing it, feeling it.

And maybe reminding myself, there is no life threatening thing going on. In this moment. I might feel sad, I

might feel anxious. I might feel joyful. But at this moment, right now here,

I'm not under a life threatening situation. What happens in the body when I say that? What happens in the body when I say at this moment, I'm safe.

I just felt expansion, a little bit of expansion in my chest. So you can track your own sensations, what is happening in the body

and maybe taking a couple of breaths, feeling the support from the back feelings support off the ground. And then if your eyes closed, if your eyes were closed, you can slowly open them. And using your neck you can orient around and see. See where you're at. See a couple of details and really track with your eyes that this is where I'm at. Is there anything that feels good? Maybe a color? Maybe a picture? Maybe a tree? Sir, anything around? That feels good. So noticing them and noticing what happens in the body as I see three different things that feels or looks good

Yeah. Yeah. So what shifts in the in the body? We I think it was like three or four minutes. Did you realize anything in your body or your breath,

Effy

I have definitely felt my shoulders release where I keep pretty much all of my attention like on the traps, like my traps are flexed from almost the moment that I wake up to when I go to bed, unless I do this kind of work to really like work with my nervous system, or work with the muscles. And when you prompted to check in to see what changes when I feel supported. I immediately felt my shoulders just drop and my arms get heavy because they dropped in in a nice way in a way that I'm like, oh, okay, I don't have to carry I have to like tighten, carry everything. So that was definitely the thing that stood out for me.

Jacqueline

Beautiful. Yeah, I definitely I feel more calm now than I did before. And I also recognize when you were asking for us to pay attention to our hips and our back that I'm not comfortable and that I often sit in positions that are not comfortable. And so what really actually made me aware was like the discomfort in my hips and my back that I forced my my body into positions for productivity that do not feel comfortable and have just and then just numb the discomfort become aware of it. And then of course at night and complaining that everything hurts and cannot understand why. And so I think those are the two things That's just being aware that I am uncomfortable and what do I need to do the shift that and then overall just feeling more calm? Yeah.

Effy

Amazing. So insightful or that whenever I speak to you, I walk away. I'm like, Oh, this is so exciting. And so it's you and or at least like, even if it's the information that I know that hearing you explain it and put it into certain context, this gives me another angle. So I really appreciate that. Always rich, just rich, the conversations I feel with, you're always rich. Thank you. I love to be here. I feel Thank you

Jacqueline

know, we looked at everything here. We want to ask if you're comfortable for questions about more and more about you. Before we let you go. So the first question that we want to ask is, what is one piece of advice that you would give to your younger self about love sex or relationships? Oh,

Rida Kirasi

I would go to her and say, Please, work on yourself. Because the things that the burdens the things that happens to you over and over are not only your, your baggage, so clear them out. enjoy and have fun.

Effy

Good advice. Great advice. Okay, what is one romantic or sexual adventure on your bucket list?

Rida Kirasi

I think it's being in public, huh. It's having a sexual adventure in a public space or to say like in a forest or Lena Park, that would be a good adventure. Yeah.

Jacqueline

Nice. And I liked it. It's both public and in nature. I like the combination of the both. I like that a lot. Third question is how do you challenge the status quo?

Rida Kirasi

I think by talking sexuality in Turkey, yes. As a woman, yeah.

Effy

Yes. It's like talking about sexuality, talking about sexuality in Turkey. In Turkey, as a woman, you are challenging the status quo thrice. Bucha was okay. I was I know how curious you are. I know the answer to that question is going to be many, many things. But what are you curious about lately? What's on your plate lately? That you're pondering on?

Rida Kirasi

Well, actually, I'm very curious about somatic work and sexuality. And we've been talking with you about that. And the first thing that came up to my mind is that how to feel safe in in sexuality, or how to let our body have joy, using somatic tools. That is that is making me very curious.

Jacqueline

Yeah, desire and pleasure and allowing ourselves to feel that way, particularly if we have felt unsafe. Yeah.

Effy

Right. Right, and balancing their arousal and safety, right, because you need both. If it's too safe, you don't really get aroused. And if you were to arouse you can tip yourself into how do you balance those things and find, find joy and excitement without triggering yourself. So yeah, we're going to talk more about that. I'm excited. Thank you so much. So so much, I

Rida Kirasi

really appreciate it. Very welcome. So nice to be here. Thank you.

Jacqueline

Lots of food for thought in that interview. For me, the things that stood out the most, and that I want to make sure that I apply in my self regulation toolbox is first, recognizing the impact of back to back to back to back meetings, and the frenetic energy. And what I thought was excitement, but really probably is anxiety is produced from that. And so the distinction between excitement and anxiety, and regulating that stimulation with calmness instead of distraction. I think up until this point, right afterwards, when I'm feeling that buzz, I go to a podcast, I go to tick tock, I go to Instagram, I go to something. And now I really need to be calm. I need to focus on calm and so so that's one piece, I think but also that bringing awareness to the part of my body that feels safe and calm. Instead of trying to force my body to feel calm, that idea of expanding out the calm and my body really stuck with me. And then I think the last piece is just allowing myself to move and to cry and to feel and to anything else that is required to get the anxiety or the fear unstuck from my body.

Effy

Sure. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, those are definitely the pieces that stuck out for me. And they resonate and they're part of the you know, the work that that I'm continued to and when I hear it back to me I'm just like I feel affirmed that I'm on the right path. The in addition to those couple of things that I thought was super interesting, what she what she was saying about the city and how the excitement of the city resonated with her and it was like she she It started initially as excitement. But it was actually the chaos of the city was more resonating with her with her anxiety. And I that definitely something that I experienced with New York when I first moved to the city, I thought I found home, I found this was the place that was like, for me, and I couldn't explain why my parents were like, you've traveled the world, you know, you've been around multiple times lived on these cities, like why New York? Why New York, and I couldn't really put words to it. And on reflection, I think it's just because the chaos that my body used to just like, felt familiar New York City's chaos felt familiar about the right, the right, resonant tempo. That's pretty much how my nervous system. And since then, I've actually heard other people say that I've been able to say that there's a disproportionate amount of people in New York City with trauma, because their nervous system just like resonates interested the chaos of of New York, and they almost have this like, codependent relationship with the city, because they feel like this is the only place their nervous system really kind of feels aligned. And I think does that serve them? They just sort of mean like the questions that you know, yeah, shows up that, brother. That was really interesting. I've definitely come to that conclusion myself.

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you've had no spaciousness to be in a space of quiet. And I'm like, what is that? Like? What was me? Yeah,

Effy

I mean, just nature, you know, just just being in nature and sort of these chaos, instead of being in an environment that my nervous system feels familiar with, knowing that my nervous system is not wise, or hasn't been wise. Instead of going, Oh, this feels like home. This is where my, my nervous system just gets to be. And it's in that in that resonance, being in nature and thinking, how can I get my nervous system to match this? Yeah, rather than find the environment that matches my nervous system to sing? Yeah, I think has been definitely a part of my healing. And, yeah, yeah, like hanging around in nature, like weeding, planting things and trying to get my nervous system to be aligned with that. It's been a huge, huge part of my healing for sure. The other thought the other thing that was interesting for me again, just like connecting some dots, you know, she talked about this idea of arousal, whether that's through fear or whether that's through, you know, sexual arousal, but just arousal of the body, which I think on a biochemical level just looks the same, right? The story is what flushes it out. And then in an ideal world, you sort of go up into around, you know, you get aroused for whatever reason, and then there is a release and accom down, and then you complete the circle, and you have closure, and you don't process it and then put archive it somewhere in your mind. I think a version of that, that I see is how it plays out in kink. You know, there's a, there's a whole school of thought that truly believes that kink, like a conscious mindful kink, that safe, sane, and consensual, can be super healing to people with trauma, especially sexual trauma. And they find ways to process their trauma in sort of kink scenes. And I think it's because it mimics this idea of arousal through impact play or whatever the whatever the situation, whatever the thing that in the scene that's getting them aroused, and then there's a calm down, and aftercare, which which allows the nervous system to return back to back to its baseline. And I think that is why kink can be therapeutic. I think it closes the loop that you know, that they're riddled is through somatic experiencing, right. And it's also I think, important to realize, like you need to find your own medicine, you really need to like, educate yourself, be open minded, try a few things to find the thing that's going to help you heal and explore and understand yourself. Yes, I think what ridurre does through somatic experiencing, I think some people find that through a kink that they're getting back, getting you back up to that aroused state, that hyper aroused state, and then coming back down and telling your nervous system, every up has a down and there's going to be a loop that's going to be completed, so that when it comes up down the line, you're like, Oh, I know my way back down from here, I know my way back down to like completing the circle. Yeah, so those are the things that just like got me thinking,

Jacqueline

yeah, yeah, that makes sense to me. I've been thinking personally a lot about things like the ritual after uncoupling and, and a sense of closure that you can do either with the other person or just with yourself or at the end of the day, particularly now, for many of us who work and and play and eat and live in the same space that that distinguishing of that spaces now is really challenging. And so taking a second to have a ritual at the end of the day, to say I am now done with work. I'm going to let them in to let that all the Zoom meetings on a process that I'm going to breathe through it and then I'm going to transition my energy and my mind into being present in the house. So that sounds like the same kind of thing that we need to replicate and emulate the the scene and the clue Was your the after care in other areas of our life? Right,

Effy

right. Absolutely. And also the other thing that she, you know, she said is taking your time. And I think those of us that live in the cities, especially cities like New York, she lives in Istanbul, which is also if you don't know it's a, it's one of those mega cities like New York, that doesn't sleep that's like, you know, super high energy, that pace isn't that necessarily good for us. But in order for us to close these loops, get our body to really register what's going on being its own process, we need to slow down and if our environment are inherently fast, like city life, we need to make a point of slowing down we need to pay it way of taking that second that you mentioned, maybe it's, you know, let a second but a few minutes, maybe half an hour. Yeah. And allowing allowing us that space, and time to process this stuff, which we don't. Yeah. To learn more about reader and connect with her. Check out our website, sound dollar therapy.com. That's s o u n d a l a therapy.com. Or follow us on Instagram at sound dollar therapy. You can listen to our sound bath for meditation and other music on Spotify, you can search for her name without Keirsey or sound dollar therapy. The easiest way to find more curious Fox episodes on challenging the status quo in sexual trauma and healing treatment options and pleasure is to check out the new episode drop emails from curious box in your inbox. While you'll find show notes, links mentioned on the show, along with episode suggestions that we think you would love. If you're not getting those emails you are missing out. So jump on our website, we are curious foxes.com and sign up to the newsletter. And of course while you're there, check out all the blog posts and resources and reading lists, recommendations and more. You can weigh in on this topic or connect with other foxy listeners by heading to Facebook and joining the Facebook group at we're curious foxes. Please share our podcast with a friend who you think would benefit from hearing it quickly rate to show leave a comment and subscribe on Apple podcasts or follow us on Spotify, or connect with the show, however makes sense in your favorite podcast app. This will take a few seconds of your time and will have a big impact on us. To support the show. Join us on Patreon where you can find a mini episodes, podcasts extras and over 50 videos from educator led workshops go to patreon.com forward slash we are curious foxes. And let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment story or a question by emailing us or sending us a voice memo to listening at we are curious foxes.com This episode is produced and edited by Nina Pollack, whose talent and expertise brings Jackie and I an incredible sense of calm. Our intro music is composed by dev Sahar, we are so grateful for that work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious ruins. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends. Stay curious, curious, curious and curious. Stay curious.

Still Curios?