Ep 174: Trauma from a New Lens with Dr MaryCatherine "MC" McDonald

How do we navigate the multifaceted nature of trauma beyond the often reductive parameters set by the medical system? How is memory formation and storage impacted by trauma and how does that impact the trauma experience? Can our journey towards healing be supported by those other than professionals?  

In this episode, Effy talks with trauma researcher and author, Dr. MaryCatherine "MC" McDonald, whose book, "Unbroken: The Trauma Response Is Never Wrong And Other Things You Need to Know to Take Back Your Life," offers refreshing perspectives in understanding and addressing trauma. Dr. MC introduces a perspective that views trauma responses as indicators of strength and resilience, challenging commonly held beliefs around vulnerability and fragility. As Effy and Dr. MC explore the neurological mechanics of trauma, they also discuss healing methodologies that move beyond standard medical approaches, emphasizing the power of self-articulation and individual paths to recovery.

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TRANSCRIPT:

MC McDonald

How can relationships evolve with people as they grow and change? Here's the reason I'm going to be alone forever. Here's the reason I'm a failure. And anytime we have a story that's taking on that outsized of meaning, there's a sign that something in there needs to be integrated, it's like it's sticking out in the file cabinet and preventing you from closing the door.

Effy

Welcome to the curious Fox podcast, for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue. Today, we're delving into a four part series on challenging the status quo in the way we look at trauma, what it is, how it impacts individual as well as their relationships, and how we treat it. In recent years. Thankfully, the topic of trauma has taken center stage in discussions on mental health, wellness, healing, and personal development. With the topic now an integral part of the way we understand human psychology, we're hearing from voices that look at trauma in new and refreshing ways, reframing our knowledge, expanding our options when it comes to treatment, and empowering survivors and those who love them in aiding recovery. Today's guest is one of those voices.

MC McDonald

Hi, I'm MC. I'm a PhD, trauma researcher, author and life coach and I'm here to change the way that we think about and treat trauma.

Effy

I became aware of Dr. Mary Katherine MacDonald, she goes by MC. After reading our book unbroken, the trauma response is never wrong, and other things you need to know to take back your life. Not only did I read the book cover to cover on a flight, but by the time I landed, I had already written an email asking her if she would be interested in talking and potentially coming on the show. MC has been researching lecturing, and publishing on neuroscience, psychology, and lived experience of trauma and stress for over a decade. She is passionate about D stigmatizing trauma, stress and mental health issues in general. What fascinated me about unbroken. And Dr. MCs take on trauma is the way she reframes trauma as a sign of strength and resilience rather than weakness and fragility, which is the prevailing way of seeing trauma. With that in mind, I wanted to begin our conversation with her definition of trauma. Trauma is definitely a topic that we go back to over and over again, we are looking for the broadest, most nuanced approaches, the trauma and all the different ways that people talking about it. And one of the reasons why we do that is because the way that we currently define trauma in the medical system is reductive and limited. And I'm interested in I know that's I know, that's something that you talk about in your book. So I really want to start from there. And I would love to hear from you what your definition would be around Trump.

MC McDonald

Yes, I totally agree with you that the definition is, is flawed. It's reductive. It is overly simplistic. And I think one of the biggest problems is that it focuses on what type of event could potentially be traumatic, and what type event of event is not traumatic. And so the result is that for about 100 years, the whole field of psychology has been arguing about what belongs in this list. What are the things that are traumatic? What are the things that are not how does this work, and there is no such list. So it's sort of a failed project from the get go. And what the result is, is that people who meet the criteria, so if they have one of the three things that count as potentially traumatic in, in our current view, they get potentially overly diagnosed with PTSD, even if they don't meet the other criteria, or the other symptoms, and people who have all of the other symptoms but have not been exposed to one of the three potential traumatic stressors that count, don't get diagnosed, and then therefore don't get shot down the right treatment path, they get shot down a treatment path that might not fit what they're actually dealing with. And you know, I'm kind of making that problem sound like the field of psychology is just doing an absolutely terrible job and why couldn't they figure this out sooner? But I think that there is a very convincing argument on the other side, which is that if we stretch the word too far, then the word trauma becomes meaningless. And so if anything is potentially traumatic, then we're all traumatized all the time. And then the real huge implication there is that we can then stop studying it because it's essentially thinking out the common cold, and we don't need to spend any research dollars on it. I think I'm always amazed when I leave psychology conferences at how much more optimistic I am about the capacity of human reason than most psychologists are. And I think that we can strike a balance there, I think we can define trauma without using an event format and not run the risk of stretching the word to meaninglessness. So that's a very long run up from my definition of trauma, which is, anytime you have an unbearable emotional experience that lacks a relational home, you have a potential for lasting trauma. So it's like a it's almost like a formula, unbearable emotional experience plus lack of a relational home equals chronic trauma and or PTSD.

Effy

Beautiful. Okay, so I want to I want to break that is it okay to break? Of course, just to have that, okay, a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And I get and I read your book, can I get it, and I really want to break it down for the people who are reading so an unbearable overwhelming emotion.

MC McDonald

So that's the first part. The reason that I love that little set of words is because unbearable ality is a sufficiently high bar, so that we don't get to say that all of our experience is traumatic all the time, or anytime we feel the slightest bit of discomfort that this equals trauma and or a trigger. And so it also hints to something that's critical about human psychology, which is that our emotions are like tunnels that we have to go through emotions are biological events that have a beginning, middle, and an end. And most of the things that we go through, we are able to bear on our own. And so how we know that we've worn something is that we've integrated that memory into our filing cabinet of all of our memories, and we can kind of bring it out and talk about it and then put it away. And it doesn't sort of take up too much space in our narrative about ourselves. It doesn't intrude into the present. So most of what we go through, we can bear, it might not be comfortable, it might be painful, it might be sad, but we can bear it, when we have something that is sufficiently overwhelming such that it tricks the system into going into fight flight or freeze, the stress response system gets turned on, which is an amazing adaptation that saves us and I want to pause there because it's so critical to understand that, at its core, the trauma response is a strength response. It is adaptive and designed to keep us alive, it is not a sign of weakness or disorder. Very important underlying italicized bold star that so but when that gets kicked off, one of the things that the brain does in order to compensate for not having limb, you know, unlimited energy stores is that it turns off the filing cabinet system. And so when we have something unbearable, our system knows what to do. And part of what it is to do. Part of what it does is turn off the recording mechanism, essentially. And so then we get stuck in that tunnel. And that emotion doesn't get borne by us, and therefore the memory doesn't get integrated. And so in cases like that we can't do this work alone anymore, we need a relational home. And that brings us to the second part of the definition. And this idea of a relational home is really critical. And it's a little bit fuzzy kind of on purpose. But the general idea is that when you have something that's really overwhelming, you need someone else to help you figure out how to integrate it, where to put it in your brain, how to put it away what it's going to mean in your larger life story. And that is also a critical piece of how we can help those around us who are dealing with trauma is knowing that.

Effy

So this brings up a few questions for me. So yeah, the idea of it being unbearable, overwhelming emotion, how? Maybe there's an obvious question, but how do we how do we know that? Right? How do you know because I, I have a sense that if you're in going through the tunnel, and you're stuck in the tunnel, my guess is that you don't know that you're stuck in the tunnel?

MC McDonald

Well, it's interesting, sometimes I think you know, and sometimes you don't. And it also depends on your individual level of awareness about your nervous system. So one of the things that makes trauma really fascinating to study kind of endlessly. So but also really frustrating is that the symptoms of trauma are as varied as we are as individuals. And so I say that I want to preface what I'm about to say by saying that, as you know, someone who's listening, you might have different responses. And so I don't this is not meant to be an exhaustive list. But I think a really good indication that something has been unbearable, is that there is some sort of fragmentation in the memory. So and that fragmentation is going to cause disruption in your brain and in your system, and it's going to come out in symptoms. And so those symptoms might look like intrusive thoughts about something they might look like avoidance of something that reminds you of that thing. They might look like intrusive images, nightmares, a lack of trust in yourself a lack of trust in the world. And it might also look like that one of your stories gains are really outsized spot in the story of your life. You know what I mean? So like,

Effy

a breakup identify with a piece of us that you almost like, identify through a piece of story. Yes. And it comes up in conversation it comes, it becomes a reason for everything that you do. It's the one bit of the story that you keep coming back to, is that what you mean?

MC McDonald

Totally, I love that. You just said that. Because I think over identification is is one of these symptoms. It's where like, this one story is my whole story, instead of this one story, or this one event is one thing that happened in this larger story arc. And here's what I think it means. And I might revise that later. So to give an example of a breakup, sometimes breakups feel very, very integratable. Right, you can say that was my first love, we had a really beautiful arc, it didn't work out, of course, we weren't going to get married, we were 16. I learned so much, you know, things like that. But it divorced later in life might take on this meaning of here's the reason I'm going to be alone forever. Here's the reason I'm a failure. And anytime we have a story that's taking on that outsized of a meaning, there's a sign that something in there needs to be integrated. It's like it's sticking out in the file cabinet and preventing you from closing the door, you know? Sure. Yeah. I

Effy

love that image. Okay, that yeah, that makes that makes a little sense. And I wanted to get a little bit more into the relational home. Yes. What shape does that take?

MC McDonald

I think I love this question, because I think it can take so so many shapes. And I think the best way to kind of understand this is by way of example, the example that always comes to mind to me is, you know, when you're moving, and you this might even be a move that you have, like, you know, you really looked forward to you're upgrading your space, you're moving to a place that you want, but moving is really stressful, and it's overwhelming, and it and it causes a lot of upheaval, all of the files in your life are kind of up in the air and moving around, and then you have to put them all back. And sometimes you get to this point in the moving process where you have like one piece of furniture that doesn't fit. And so you're like, I don't know where the couch is gonna go, I don't know where the couch is gonna go, I don't know where the couch is gonna go. And whatever that thing is, it's kind of like the straw that breaks the camel's back, and you have a meltdown. Right. And what you need in that situation is for someone who is not currently having a meltdown, to come in and say, Look, there's only really three spaces for the couch. So let's try them out. And we can then pick and if we can't pick tonight, we're going to leave it and then we can, you know, come back tomorrow and I'll help you. I think in in a lot of ways a relational home is anytime happens anytime we are witnessing someone else's overwhelm and kind of helping them study. And that can be we can do that knowingly, we can do that in therapeutic spaces very intentionally, we can do that in really small ways. When we are kind to each other in the grocery store, when we give our friends encouragement and check in when we know they're having a hard week, or give them a piece of advice when we think they might be struggling with something that we've struggled with anytime we reach out on an online forum or in an online community to say, Hey, this is happening to me, what is this like for you? And we get feedback. What we're looking for is a relational home. It's kind of any any time we are, like bolstering one another in in the storm, you know,

Effy

for sure, yeah. And the thing that also sticks out for me when when I hear you say that is connection, yeah, meaningful connection, meaningful supportive connection of any sort?

MC McDonald

Totally, yeah, we have a tendency to get too precious about this, especially when it comes to the T word trauma. And we think like, if I'm going to talk about trauma, the only place I can get a relational home or heal is in a therapists office. And I think number one, often unfortunately, that doesn't happen. Number two, the healing process can happen all day long, in 100 different ways with 100 Different kinds of interactions. I think one of the great ironies of trauma is that most of the trauma that we experience as human beings is at the hands of other human beings. And most of the healing we experience as human beings is at the hands of other human beings. And so there's a tremendous capacity to provide healing to one another in really small ways. And I don't I think we should focus on that, because it's, it's time, you know,

Effy

definitely, that's, that's actually what I was thinking, as you were explaining this, that this definition, not only makes it accessible in terms of understanding it, it sets a bar so it's not too low, but it's not also too high and very different, you know, very rigid either. It also makes treatment and healing, accessible through multiple forms, not just this is the only way you're gonna treat your trauma and this is the only way you're gonna get better. And it also I think, empowers because trauma, especially big trauma. I remember reading with you when you book the thing that kept coming up for me is this idea of a blast radius. When someone's experiences trauma, yes, they experienced it and they're at the epicenter of Ebola, but then there's a blast radius like so many people get affected by as well. And I think with your definition, it empowers those in the blast radius, to also be a part of this healing experience rather than kind of powerlessly watching it. And I think that's, that's kind of that's brilliant, that sort of empowers everybody. And without this like, thing of

MC McDonald

like, feeling like they have to take it all on or fix it, which may be what you're just gonna say, yeah,

Effy

yeah, no, no, no, I was gonna say it's also in a way, encourages and invites us all to be kind of a part of the process as well.

MC McDonald

Yes, the I really think there's a moral impetus at the center of that, like we are responsible for each other. And we have to take on that responsibility. And that being said, that responsibility can feel infinite and unbearable itself, if we're not taking it on in the right way. And so I think by scaling down what it means to heal, and what we can provide for other people than we, as you said, it empowers everyone.

Effy

Yeah, sort of the bar that you're setting with the first part unbearable, I also think that it honors people's capacity. Some people have much higher capacity to bear things, and some people don't. And that's it's just resilience as a part of our genes, or our makeup, the way that there is also a spectrum as well. And I think if you then say is like unbearable, only you as the person who's going through it can be like, it's not unbearable. I mean, it is unbearable. So you get to decide what it is for you, rather than a checklist that may or may not speak to you.

MC McDonald

Totally, I also think that it gives a hint, sometimes we we take ourselves and our identity as this like static thing. And we think we stick these labels on ourselves good or bad. And so we think I am resilient, or I am not resilient, or whatever. And then what we're what we don't realize is that we fall at different points of the spectrum at different points in our lives. And so what is bearable for you right now might be very different than what's variable for you in five years, or what was bearable for you when you were a kid. And I think it's really important to keep an eye on that context. Because sometimes we over identify, going back to that idea with this idea that like, it's impossible for me to be traumatized because of what I've been through, and then we miss our own overwhelm. Sure, and that can have catastrophic effects.

Effy

Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. That makes so much sense to me. Okay, so one of the things that you dropped it in that earlier, but I want to pick it up and really talk about it, because it's also the reason that the name of your book unbroken, right, this idea that trauma is a strength response. Yes. The question I want to ask you is what are the misconceptions around trauma? And I think that's, that's one of them. Right, that the sort of the top one that I would say, is this idea that we think that people who experienced trauma are weak in some way? Or that we are weakened by trauma?

Unknown Speaker

Yes. Right. Can

Effy

you speak to a little bit? Can you speak to that a little bit?

MC McDonald

Absolutely. So that was the reason that I titled the book on broken because I, you know, as I was looking at the history of the study of trauma, I realized it started to become very clear to me why we judge folks who are struggling with mental illness in general, and in particular, with trauma as weak. And it's because of, you know, shame 150 years of shame and bad science, the beginnings of the study of trauma start with the the real and true, this is gonna sound made up. But this is real and true scientific belief that these symptoms were a result of a uterus that was wandering all over the body. Right, like, like, what the hell was real?

Effy

Yeah, neuroses. Yeah, really.

MC McDonald

That's the prevailing scientific belief. It was It's bonkers. But I think it's really important that we keep an eye to that, because we don't realize sometimes that we inherit these old definitions and what they are steeped in. And what that definition definition was steeped in originally is misogyny. And the idea that this linking of emotional struggle with feminine weakness and insanity, that I really think we still I still see that in in the way that some people talk about trauma today. Sure. And so I think it's really important to understand that but the the history also was, a lot of this hypothesis happened before we could see what was going on in the body before we knew what was going on in the brain before we had any of these imaging technologies that enable us to really know what's going on. And so when we look at what science has found about trauma, what we see is that the trauma response is adaptive. It's an evolutionary adaptation. And it's a set of responses that are kind of like an emergency brake, in your brain and body that go off only when your brain and body detect mortal danger. And those responses fight flight and freeze are designed to keep you alive in moments in which you are in mortal danger. And so from a biological perspective, the trauma response is a strength response. It is there to keep you alive. problems occur down the line when the stress response system gets kicked on. When it isn't supposed to when the system is detecting threat from benign stimuli, and when it gets kicked on, and it can't turn itself back off. And that's what contributes to the symptoms that are, of course, quite distressing. I never mean to say that the trauma response feels good. But just that it is, it's really important that we understand that it's born of strength, not weakness. And so when we're struggling with it, we get really sidetracked by shame, which I think is the biggest barrier in the way of healing from trauma. And if we look at to the biology instead of that history that steeped in misogyny and shame, if we look at the science we can, we can be free of that shame by realizing what's going on in the brain of the body.

Effy

Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I think, yes, it's definitely misogyny. I think at the same time, we know those things like misogyny and patriarchy, of course, affect men too, because I think when being so assigned to feminine, men don't get to get to have trauma. They don't get to have the the care and the need and the healing they need because of trauma, because it's not it's a woman thing, it's a female thing that happens

MC McDonald

100% I'm so glad you brought that up to one of the paper that I'm kind of the most proud of because it was a little bit subversive, was called hysterical girls, and it was about how combat trauma is essentially an inherently a feminist issue for men, and so that men are dealing with the repercussions of misogyny in ways that that is costing them their lives. Sure. Yeah. And so I fully fully believe we all get the short end of the straw here.

Effy

So what what does the science say? We've gone past the wandering uterus, right? We speak a little bit more sense these years just a little bit more. What is what is the latest? What does the science say latest that we'll take with a pinch of salt,

MC McDonald

yes, that we come programmed with something called the stress response system. And that's a multi layered system in your body that we get as human beings, that starts developing actually, when we're in the womb. And this stress response system, as I said, is designed to help you detect and respond to threat. And that gives you a set of responses that we have grouped into fight flight or and freeze. And so when your body detects that the thing that is in front of you is something that you can fight, then it it up, regulates lots of systems in your body so that you can fight better. So it changes using your hormone system gives you more adrenaline, higher heart rate and ability to see and move faster and all that kind of stuff. When your system detects that you cannot probably fight the thing that's in front of you, but you can probably get away, then it up regulates several things that make it possible for you to get away. And it kind of makes that decision for you in milliseconds. And then when your system decides that you're you can't fight and you also can't get away from what is in you know, endangering you, then you freeze. And that's kind of like the way that animals freeze when they are in extreme danger, your blood pressure lowers your respiratory rate lowers your heart rate lowers, and you kind of blank out all of these responses we can see working in the body and the brain. And what we see is modulation of the hormone system, and also the electrical circuits and blood flow in the brain. And so basically, to give you a really simple example, there's actually I've been having a deer on the roof problem, which is kind of wild. But

Effy

if you're getting onto your roof is getting

MC McDonald

onto the roof, yes, I have a little flat area of roof, that's right where my bedroom is and deer that live right behind me. And they have a kind of overtaking the yard. And they have this propensity to jump on the roof at 130 in the morning. And so I can use this example to show you about my stress response system. So at one o'clock in the morning, I am asleep, I'm at my lowest blood pressure, lowest respiratory rate, lowest heart rate I am I'm very relaxed, and sleeping. And then I hear this noise and within milliseconds before my brain and my cognitive part of my brain, my rationality, have a chance to think about anything. My whole system has adjusted to handle what is now this threat. And so I'm sitting up my heart rate is like 120. And my eyes are wide open, I can see really clearly I'm sometimes moving across the room before I even realize what's happening. And then I realized that it's a deer and I'm like, oh, okay, I've gotta go yell at the deer. And then go back to bed. And then within 20 minutes or so I can kind of get back to relaxation, and then maybe I'm asleep and 30 minutes, and I'm back to my lowest blood pressure and all of that. And so we are designed to kind of toggle back and forth between that high activation rate and the low activation rate. And as you can see, in that example, if it was a burglar or if the deer had come through the ceiling, right, those set of responses would save my life. So that's basically the stress response system and that's we're built With that, and that is that's the strength response that I'm talking about. When those things start firing at the wrong times, then we start to have these distressing symptoms. So if I have an intrusive thought, and I'm sitting here talking to you, and all of a sudden my heart rate goes up, respiratory rate goes up, but I'm not in danger, we're having a lovely conversation and I'm safe in my home, then that's an indication that the the strength response has gone haywire. And I need to figure out how to recalibrate the system. And so that was a big focus in the book. And a big focus in my work is trying to empower people to have an understanding of what's going on in their nervous system. Now that the science knows this, we can also know it and understand that though, we can't, and wouldn't want to get rid of the trauma response, we can intervene, we have more control than we think when it goes off at the wrong times.

Effy

So I just want to understand something. So when you respond to the Dear, are you? Are you technically traumatized,

MC McDonald

there's potential so my stress response system is activated, right. And so anytime that happens, we've got overwhelm. My system is adjusting blood flow, electrical activity in my brain, there's hormones coursing through my body, we have, we definitely have overwhelm whether or not this thing is going to become traumatic depends on a whole bunch of other things. So if let's say I was an infant, and that happened every night, and I have no control over my environment, and all I can do is scream and cry. And let's say nobody comes. And I scream and cry, and I have this awful experience, then what's happening when this when I'm exposed to this over and over, and there's no relational home is that my stress response system over time is going to become sensitized. And so it might now go off anytime I hear a loud noise as a kid. Now I'm four and the garbage truck this year, and I'm on the floor in tears, and nobody can understand why. You know. So that's kind of an example, taking the same example and making that a potential trauma.

Effy

Because we understand how it works, is there anything that we can do to prevent it? So you hear the deer you're up? You don't even know what's going on? Because you're, you're having a stress response, the front, the frontal lobe is offline? What can we do if you find ourselves in these situations to make sure that it doesn't stick in the body as trauma?

MC McDonald

Yes, there's actually a lot that we can do I want to talk really quickly, maybe just give a little kind of a primer on memory files, if that's okay. Sure. Yeah, so one of the things we talked before about how the human psychology is structured kind of in a way that we have to make sense and integrate things. And what that means on the neurobiological level is that every time something happens, our brain goes through this process. And in particular, this area of the brain called the hippocampus goes through this process of consolidating and labeling the memory file and putting it away in this file system. And that enables us to navigate the world with ease and safety. So if we remember that this mushroom was poisoned, and this one is food, and we're going to survive longer, so that part of our brain has evolved and has become quite sophisticated. So when anything happens, within about four to 24 hours, you get a memory file of that event. And that memory file has a narrative, it has beginning, middle and end, here's what happened if I needed to tell somebody else, it has emotional content, this was a funny thing. This is a distressing thing, this was an inconvenient thing, whatever. And then it has a set of meaning tags that enables your brain to find it really quickly. So it might be organized by chronology, by meaning by type of story, whatever, when we have a really overwhelming event, as you mentioned, the frontal lobe is one of the things that starts getting a lot less blood flow and electrical, electrical connectivity, and so does the hippocampus, which is that file room. And so again, that's, that's adaptive, your brain doesn't have unlimited energy. And so what it's doing is it's taking resources and sending them to places that are going to be more helpful for you to survive in that moment. So your senses and your strength and all of that kind of stuff. And it's pulling it away from those areas. And again, that's to keep you alive. But one of the problems is, is that if you don't have the opportunity, again, within four to 24 hours after the event that's potentially traumatic, to go in and organize that memory, what you end up with is a fragmented file, and the fragmented file sticks out in the file cabinet. The file cabinet doesn't like that. And so anytime something comes into your perception that reminds you of that folder, the file cabinet, like shoots it forward to the front of your mind. And then that's why we have this experience of triggers. Which reminds me that I want to come back to that at some point what Ken because you asked a minute ago about misconceptions around trauma. And I think we know this one misconception that trauma means we're broken is one thing, but we also have misconceptions about what it means to be traumatized, and to have triggers and we should talk about that. But so these memory files get encoded, and they're sorry, they get fragmented and then they cause this problem for your brain. And so anytime you come across something your brain is trying I need to give you the opportunity to organize it. So it will throw it to the front of your mind. And then you're kind of off to the races all over again. So one of the things and this will make sense to you right away, one of the things that we can do, and there have been studies on this is to go in and organize the file right away. So they've done a couple of studies that are really encouraging. There was one, I believe this was in Israel, where they took folks who had just been a witness to terrorist attack, and were coming into the emergency room. And they gave the control group kind of the standard of care in the emergency room. And then they gave this other group an opportunity to narrate the event over and over again a couple of times with someone who was attuned to them and feeling the overwhelm with them, and kind of put it away. And that group that went through the narrative exercise with somebody else, was something like 80% less likely to develop PTSD than the control group. So we know now that we know what's going on in the brain, when we are overwhelmed and traumatized, we can sort of reverse engineer how to prevent PTSD. That's not necessarily going to be like a golden, you know, bullet that's going to solve every single problem. But that's certainly something that we could include as standard of care in situations like car accidents and terrorist attacks and things like that. Maybe anything in the emergency room. Another thing that has been studied really extensively, and the studies have been repeated to great efficacy is, believe it or not the phone game Tetris, which is wild. I know it's, this is one of those places where I was like, I was looking at these reports, and these, these articles that were coming out of the research, and I was like, Really, let's get a couple more. Let's get a couple more, let's get a couple more. And they keep showing the same thing, which is that and it makes sense. So Tetris for listeners who don't know is is a phone game that where you have these blocks that come down, that are shaped in different sizes, and you have to put them in order. And then if you don't put them in the right order, then you the kind of pile goes to the top and you lose, the better you get, the faster the game gets, which means it makes a continuous bid on your prefrontal cortex. So what you're doing when you're playing Tetris is you are forcing blood flow and electrical activity into your prefrontal cortex, which is, as we mentioned, one of the areas that has gone sort of offline, when you're feeling really overwhelmed. So they've done tons of studies with Tetris at different areas of of suffering. So they've done it when someone has already been diagnosed with PTSD. And they're dealing with the symptoms of PTSD. And they found that 20 to 60 minutes of play of Tetris, reduces their baseline level of anxiety. They've also done it with folks who have just been through a traumatic event, like a car accident or something like that in the emergency room. And they found that similar to the narrative exercise, those folks are less likely to develop PTSD after. And then also preventatively. They've been doing some studies on that, and showing that again, if it lowers your baseline of anxiety in general, then that can, by sort of extension, increase your resilience. So pretty wild, that, uh, that a little phone game can help so much, but

Effy

yeah, so we were talking about misconceptions, and then I'm gonna come back to that. So what is another misconception that is it? Okay. Yeah, what is another misconception that that we have about trauma?

MC McDonald

Number one, I want to kind of don't jump into triggers. And there's a couple of misconceptions with triggers. Because I think this is one of the spaces that we talk about trauma the most, and it that we've sort of like inherited this language around being triggered. And we're using it in all these ways that are really kind of wild and terrible and not helpful. Number one, we are not always conscious of our triggers. Often, because of the nature of traumatic memory, we don't have the ability to connect the dots between the stimulus and the response. And so something comes into my perceptual field, that gives me anxiety. And I don't know what that is. And so I think one I hear a lot of people talk about like, well, here's my list of triggers. And it's, I always want to say those are the ones you know, about, you know, yeah. The second misconception about triggers is that when you have a trigger, this is an indication that you need to avoid this thing for the rest of your life. And what's actually going on as your system is trying to give you the opportunity to reorganize a fragmented memory and that and your, your, you know, stress response system is reacting as if you were in that original danger. And so the answer there is to recalibrate the stress response system, and then integrate that memory so that the trigger is no longer so activating.

Effy

Sure, yeah. Can we also talk a little bit about triggers? What is the definition of a trigger? And how do you how do you look for it? How do we know about it?

MC McDonald

Yeah, so a trigger was was originally supposed to be the word that that went along with this very strange language exploding experience of someone who has trauma where they're living in two times at once. And so when you're triggered by something. So let's say for example, you and I are hanging out and we go into a cafe, and they're making cinnamon bread. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, my mom used to make cinnamon bread, I'm so overwhelmed by that smell, let me tell you about this happy memory. Right? In that case, we are, we are sent into the past in a way that is maybe not fully in our control. But we still have a say over what happens in the next couple of minutes. So I can tell you a story. I can feel some of the emotions of like that cinnamon bread, or the experience of sitting on the counter woman mom was baking. And then I can go on with whatever our plan was for the conversation or for the whatever for the day. When you have a traumatic memory that has not been integrated, what happens is that when you experience something in your perception that looks like anything from that file, your whole system gets hijacked. Because the hippocampus tries to throw that memory to the front of your mind and says, Hey, look, here's that here's that color red. We know this is danger, but we don't know why can you organize this, but then your limbic system, your amygdala, and all these other areas of the brain recognize that red is danger, and they send you into the stress response. So you could be sitting at a cafe, someone walks in with a red shirt, and all of a sudden, you are in full fledged panic attack and have no idea why. And this is because your stress response system has has been kicked off and in a moment in which you're safe, when it's not supposed to be going off. And you're essentially living in the past and the present at the same time. And that's a very profoundly distressing confusing experience for the person going through it. And it's really hard to talk about and fix, because the rational parts of your brain that you need in order to do that are offline. And so you just end up getting repeatedly re traumatized by these things that you encounter. And so that's a really specific kind of experience, right? When you're kind of thrown into the past or living in two time periods at once. You're maybe disoriented, and there's a high level of distress, that is what happens when you have that's a trigger. That's what that was supposed to mean. We use this word now. And I've see such damage and relationships and clients that come in to mean, I am having a feeling and that feeling now is the tyrant of our relationship. Or this situation, right. So I'm having a feeling or I'm upset, or I don't like this, and therefore I'm going to call it a trigger, and then hijack the whole situation. Sure, and we're using it to say like, I'm uncomfortable with the way that people are talking online, and I'm triggered, and I'm uncomfortable, I don't like that this just happened. And so I'm triggered. And I talked about it kind of in some funny ways in the book of like, my, my students are triggered by everything, they're triggered by their chemistry exam. And the person sitting next to them is chewing gum, and they have misophonia. And so they're triggered by that. And it's like, your experiences in any of these realms are important. Your emotions are important. It's also important that we label them correctly and with Nuance so that we know how to proceed. And if we're triggered triggered all the time by everything, then no one can move.

Effy

And I definitely have when I've worked with with clients, when they talk about being triggered in the way that you talked about it existing in into places in such in such a way that they feel different in their body, they feel young, because they've got transported to a time when they were too low. And they were youth. And they feel young in no way they feel physically different. But I think that that to me also says okay, you're really not here, like you got sucked into somewhere else into that time and space. And it's visceral for you. It's not just in your imagination that gets so consuming that it's kind of a visceral experience

MC McDonald

totally, because your body is responding as if you were actually in the presence of that dangerous situation, whether that's an abusive parent or you know, some other danger or a car accident that you live through or anything like that. But yeah, that visceral reaction, that really heightened response of the nervous system, those are always things to key into, and also the total deactivation of the nervous system as well. So if you find yourself in relationship conflict, for example, and this was me for a really long time, completely blanking out, like losing track of the conversation, not knowing what was happening being like a complete blank slate and not being able to feel anything, that's also an indication of fragmentation. It's just harder to represent that kind of in the media. So I think we often go to the example of somebody who's having a panic attack versus somebody who's shutting down. But that's also trauma response. Yeah.

Effy

Yeah. No, that that definitely makes sense. And I think it is easier. So let's just talk this in the, in the context of a relationship, and I kind of want to steer the conversation in that direction. Yeah. In the context of a relationship. You can almost sympathize easier with somebody having a panic attack than somebody who's shutting down because somebody who's shutting down can feel personal. Feel like rejection, it could feel like disinterested, indifference, not wanting to participate. I definitely Hear those alone in my practice?

MC McDonald

Yeah, completely, I think and that can even go so far as to, to I've seen examples of this. And I've actually had this happen to me where the person who is shutting down also can have a very unmatched emotional response. So they might start laughing. Mm hmm. And the other partner is like, what are you How could you write that is so disrespectful, but like the, it's important to understand that that the person who has checked out has checked out like they're not in the room anymore. There's so much that we can do in relationship to navigate triggers and to help each other heal and to get closer and but we have to be doing it in the right way. We have to be talking about triggers in the right way. And I think the two questions to ask when something is coming up in conflict like that are number one, you know, I guess, point zero is pause. Two questions are what what's going on here? Like you're having a response? That's confusing me. And it feels like this, but I'm not sure that that's what is intended, you know? So what's going on here? And then the second question is, how do we navigate? Because I'm sure you've seen this with your clients, too. I think the move that we tend to make is that if someone has a trigger than everyone kind of goes like this is their hands up and disconnects and says like, Okay, well, I guess the trigger is the most important thing. And the trigger is indeed very important. But the way to work with the triggers to navigate around it in ways that will likely heal it not to let it have kind of dominance over the relationship. And so, and that can look like many things. So if so, I've done this in my relationships, even friendships and in like work relationships, if things get to a level of conflict, that that's very intense, and people are yelling, I have a really hard time staying in the room, like, like, psychologically, physically, I'll be in the room. But psychologically, I'm checked out. And that's just because of my past and the way that I grew up. And so I have had to communicate that to coworkers and friends and partners and say, Look, you know, like, I understand that sometimes that level of intensity happens, but I need you to know that, like, I'm not there. And so we need to figure out how to navigate around that. And so it's not the case that I say to partners or work, you know, colleagues that like, you can never get mad. But I say when you get mad, and in this way, then this is sometimes what happens to me. And here's what I'm going to do to try to indicate that. And here's maybe what we can, what you can do to help me with it. And then we kind of come to the table, and it's a negotiation around the trigger, so that both people or however many people are involved, can get what they need, and also not kind of unnecessarily harm the other person. So that makes sense.

Effy

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So how does trauma affect relationship? I know there's a massive big question. It depends on trauma depends on relationship, you know, all that kind of stuff. But what are some of the sort of the main ways that we know that trauma affects relationships, in terms of people coming into relationship with trauma? What can that look like both relational? And then I want to expand also into sexual as well?

MC McDonald

Yeah. So I think there's a there's a misconception hiding here, which is that when we take it to be the case, that if we're traumatized, and we're broken, I think a lot of people think that we are if you have trauma, that you're unfit for relationship. And that is, I just want to say that's a misconception that is totally false. I think that again, like I said before, the irony is that most of the trauma that we deal with, outside of like natural disasters, of course, and things like that, is at the hands of other human beings. And that either occurs developmentally in the ages between zero and 18, or older relationships and things like that. And the greatest healing that happens is also at the hands of human beings. And so what that means is that trauma often like relationships are the stage that trauma plays itself out. And you can think that you don't have any triggers, or that you've had a past experience totally integrated. And then all of a sudden, you're in a relationship, romantic or intense friendship or anything. And all of a sudden, these buttons and these bruises are getting pushed that you forgot where there you thought were totally healed. And so I think we need to have a lot more humility of the fact that our triggers are supposed to come in, in relationships, because I think when we are with other people, we have the opportunity to heal those triggers, at least in a different way. I was gonna say far better than alone. But I think some healing does happen alone. But the healing that we do in relationship with each other is incredibly powerful. But in order to do that, we have to we have to be humble about the fact that triggers are going to come up in relationships, they might be triggered that you thought you dealt with it doesn't mean you didn't do any healing. I think we just have the wrong frame on what it means to heal. Triggers come up in every moment of a relationship. They come up in the beginning stages when you're not sure where things are are where you fit, how things are gonna go, they come up later in relationships when things start to settle, and you start to feel safe. One of the things that happens very often with people who have trauma histories is that feelings of peace and safety and love are actually the moments when all the triggers come up. Because they feel that safety, and they're like, oh, here, here's an opportunity, we can work on all this stuff. But then we interpret that as like, this relationship is terrible, or I'm unfit for relationship. And we don't know how to proceed, I think if we understand that our bodies are barometers. And that these barometers are giving us readings all the time, and we learn how to interpret them together, then we can heal and we can actually get closer to other people. This is I feel like I'm just kind of talking generally about relationships. I think that in terms of my my clients, the things that I see the most are that this stuff starts to come out in ways that really cause problems when there's conflict. And those triggers become really difficult to navigate, because you have one partner who wants to solve the problem, and the other partner needs space. And so you've got people who are triggering each other about something that has nothing to do with the other person, but it's it's threatening the relationship.

Effy

Can I just go back? Because I want to go, what you've just said into context, just so that I understand. So you're saying the triggers come up in a, in a loving sort of peaceful container, which often tends to be romantic partners meet? And because it's a safe space, your body's going, Oh, this is a good time for us to deal with this stuff. Right? It comes up. At the same time, I'm hearing that it comes up during conflict within those relationships. Yeah. So can you speak to how those kind of fit together? Yeah,

MC McDonald

I mean, I think in some sense, they don't write I think that triggers like are going to be as fragmented as our fragmented memories. And so they're going to come up in places that seem really counterposed. And we're like, wait a second, it comes up in peace, and it comes up in conflict, I think one of the reasons that it comes up in conflict is because this is one of the parts of our relationships where we feel the most vulnerable and at risk. So we're already in a sensitive situation. And then when something starts to go, maybe get a little bit more intense or go wrong, according to our estimation at the moment, then it just can activate something that's kind of sitting and waiting. When it comes to feelings of peace. I think that, especially if you have developmental trauma, feeling safe in a relationship is triggering, or can be triggering, because it's so foreign. And so that can be something that also makes you feel really vulnerable and sensitive in a similar way that conflict does, even though those two things are completely opposite, Shawn. So in even though it's a different kind of set of circumstances, those same triggers can come up. Sure,

Effy

that makes sense to me. And I think the other thing that it makes me think Is that true connection and true sort of vulnerable to intimacy, intimacy, you see, I think that you can avoid the intimacy out and the other out in the world, other people, so you can put the triggers the trauma away in a container and just carry on with your life and never have to deal with it, because you're not letting people see into you. And I think if you want to develop a meaningful, long term, romantic, loving, intimate relationship, then you're gonna have to let people in, you're gonna have to let people see. And when they see they get to see everything, which means the triggers and the the trauma, the file sticking out the the filing cabinet cannot be hidden, and therefore it has to be dealt with. I think that that probably plays a role in that as well. Yes, absolutely.

MC McDonald

I also think we, you know, we've romanticized love and connection so much, that we miss the fact that being vulnerable, being intimate with another human being is the scariest thing we do as human beings. And so that's like, we, of course, these things come up in those moments when we are being seen like that. And we're vulnerable in a way that is infinite, you know?

Effy

Yeah, for sure. Yes. I agree with you that we've definitely dignified love in this, this idea of like, sparkles and you know, hummingbirds it's like, yes. And it's scary. And overwhelming, and it feels like the floor is getting away from you. And yeah, that's for sure. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, I guess with all that it kind of makes sense with you, you're vulnerable, even letting people see into you. So you both have a safe space, but also that safe space is precious, because it's because it's so important to you. And I definitely see that especially couples that are more on the enmeshed side, that one relationship becomes so pivotal to them some level of their psyche, some level of your nervous system, that that relationship feels so pivotal, so important, the only place maybe the only relational home I don't know if that will be the right thing to say, yeah, that then it is the place where you want to put everything. And because you put everything that it's also becomes this like, really precious, precious, fragile thing that you carrying around and it has the anxiety around that.

MC McDonald

Yep. Yeah. And that goes back to this idea of over identification, because then you've already identified with that one relationship, this is the only my one and only my single soulmate, like, and so of course, then that becomes really precarious. Because anything happens to that relationship or that person, they're holding everything. Right.

Effy

Right. And so yeah, ances Yeah. What, what is there to do?

MC McDonald

What is there to do? I think, number one, knowing yourself, I think accepting that these things are scary, and that that's okay. That doesn't necessarily mean that that that you're in the wrong relationship. If you're scared, it might just mean you're vulnerable. I think that we have to work against a lot of the social programming that we've gotten about relationships and love because it's really reductive and misguided in a lot of ways. I think learning that your body is a barometer and understanding that your partner or partners bodies are also barometers. And that those parameters are always giving all of us information, and learning how to open up some sort of channel of communication about what's going on in our bodies is really, really critical for relational stability, because then we have, we've opened up that channel, and we can talk about it and say, Hey, I'm feeling really like this, I'm not really sure why I'm feeling really anxious or shut down. And can you help talk me through this? Or can you be with me in this, I think learning how to recalibrate our nervous systems for things like intimacy and joy is hard, but really rewarding work. And it is possible, I think, so that's another part of what we can do. And I also think if we can let go of this idea that there's an arrival point at healing, in which we will be fully present in all of our relationships and never triggered and never make a mistake and never harm anyone, like, if we can let go of that and understand that the healing, that we're all healing from lots of things, and that that healing process can sometimes be a little ugly. And that that's okay, we're still learning that that's another thing we can do. You asked about how does this kind of take place? Or how does this come up in sexual relationships. And I think that this is one of the places where I would love to do some more more writing, because again, the talking about misconceptions when you've had trauma in your body, if especially if you've had sexual trauma, this, this profoundly changes the nature of your identity as a sexual being. And I don't think that that change is negative, necessarily. But I think that we we live in a sex phobic culture, more or less, I think that's changing. But what that means is that we have very strange, puritanical beliefs about sexuality and our identity and how those two things overlap. And then when you add trauma in there, it there's so much shame that gets in the way. And so I think that number one, if you're someone who's dealt with sexual trauma, and you're being told and kind of fed this lie, that this means that you are sexually broken and will never have a fulfilling or joyful sex life. That is a misconception. And I don't mean to say that it isn't scary, of course. But I think that, in the right situations, walking back into sexual intimacy can be profoundly healing on the body level, the sexual level and the psychological level, to be honest. And so again, I think the work there starts with understanding that your body is a barometer, and that barometer is giving you information and to listen to and navigate what it is telling you in your sexual relationships so that you're in situations where you feel like you're in control, and open to the experiences that are happening, because there's so much regulation that happens when we are allowed to be in touch with each other physical touch. And so I feel really sad when I hear stories where people have kind of cut that off for themselves, because they have this misconception that if they've had this trauma in the past that that means that they will never be able to have it in a pleasurable way in the future, you know, to show

Effy

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think the other thing that I hear a lot is that sex also allows us to really connect and be in our, in our body. Yes. And I think some of the trauma responses that this embodiment that this association, and it could be really hard to be in your body to feel your feet. And I think in a safe space, that sexual connection sexual touch can really ease you back into your body. And it can like sexual healing is a thing.

MC McDonald

Yeah. Yeah, Israel. Yes.

Effy

There's not just a song and it doesn't Actually we have been. And I think it could be very much a part of a trauma. So a trauma healing journey to get back into that touch to get physical intimacy. So we talked about the how it shows up in relationships and how it can affect sexuality. And we also talked about how healing comes from everywhere. And it can also come from the people that are the closest to us. It doesn't always have to be professionals. What are some of the ways to be able to show up with our partners who might arrive with trauma, while having good boundaries claimed as a tricky, like, how do you do it, when you have good boundaries, you don't take it on, you don't make your business but you're there to support and be a part of the healing journey, while of course taking care of yourself as well. And I think people who also also arrive with their own trauma that might allow them to understand what it feels like on the other side, or it might actually limit them immensely, because they're in their own trauma. Or somebody who, you know, one of those like five, five lucky people in the world who don't have trauma, right? Like, what is this thing, right? So what are some of the ways that we can show up in our relationships, support our partner around healing your own trauma, while having good boundaries and taking care of ourselves,

MC McDonald

there's three things that immediately come to mind. And the first is that I think that it's very helpful, especially if someone's dealing with an acute trauma that's just happened, or one that's really kind of taking hold in the relationship, it's really helpful for everyone to be resourced outside of the relationship with a support network of friends and family, people, they can run things by professionals, if that's appropriate and available at the time. And then just other spaces where they can talk about things because I think when someone has trauma, and they're, they're healing, this can kind of set the stage for enmeshment, especially perhaps, if the other partner hasn't experienced trauma, because they can be like, Oh, God, I need to help and fix and be here. And that can be really, really draining for the relationship, but also for both of the people in it. The second thing is that I lean on philosophy, I work in multiple disciplines, but I lean on philosophy and the the field and philosophy that I work in is called phenomenology. And the study of phenomenology is simply the study of of human experience, what is it like? And I think that the phenomenological stance is inherently a healing stance, because it faces the other person with an open non judgmental curiosity. I think in relationships, and especially perhaps in in intimate relationships, we don't ask nearly enough, what is it like? And I don't know why we don't ask that enough. But shame on different levels, or just that it's not available on our horizon as things that we think are valuable. But if you know that you have a partner who is traumatized? What is that like for them? You know, what is it like for you to be intimate with someone knowing that you've had this experience in the past? What is it like for you right now like that curiosity provides a very safe space for the other person to do some healing work. Because every time we talk about what we've been through, and how it's taking hold in the present, we are doing integration work in our brain. And so that's the second step, which is curiosity. And third, I think, is a kind of hate this language, because it sounds so businesslike. But to take these instances, as moments for negotiation for both people in the room, you know, assuming the relationship only has two, but however many people you have, when you have triggers, and when you have trauma, you know, anytime you're in any kind of relationship with other people, you're going to have opposing needs sometimes. And I think if we, if we were more available to look at these needs as places for for healthy negotiation, then that helps us to set our boundaries. So if you're coming into using the example of someone who hadn't had a lot of trauma and is with someone who does, you know, you might say, I want to support you, let's make sure we're resourced. I want to know what that's like for you. And here's what I need. In a relationship, I also need to feel emotionally supported. And I don't have a background of trauma. And I'm not really sure how to get that emotional support. Unless I have a story that looks like you're so can we talk about that? You know, like, and then the other person might say, Well, I think your current emotional experience, day to day is really important. And that's something I can support you on. It doesn't have to be trauma in order for me to be supportive of you. I can be supportive of your joy, I can be supportive of your hopes, and you know, all these things. Because I think that we, when we don't look at these things, as a negotiation, we end up feeling really stuck and trapped really quickly. And that can set a dynamic up that will sink the relationship.

Effy

And I see this I see this. I'm sure I see this happen. So it really does does resonate with me. And I do wonder around the curiosity just going back to what you're asking like why don't meet Why don't we ask that? Yeah, I wonder if it's because by asking that you are now accepting that you don't know the other person. And I think knowing the other person is where the safety comes from. Right? We we fear the unknown. And I think we wait assuming what the other person is and how they're like, and like I've been in relationship with this person for 10 years, I know them inside out. I think that in one hand gives us that comfort of I know this person, there's nothing there's no wildcard, there's no curveballs, I know. And then if I get into curious mode, and start asking them, then I'm accepting that maybe I don't know them. Maybe I'm opening myself up for discovering something that I don't want to some dark secret that comes up, then I'm like, now I don't know this, like who are you then suddenly, like the whole thing? The whole sort of House of Cards topples, because you asked you got you almost got too curious. And I can see I can see that being maybe a subconscious fear. It's like, why don't we ask why don't we do because maybe we are. Maybe there's a part of us that is afraid to discover something which is dang gonna challenge, like, all the things that are on the line, and it no longer feels safe.

MC McDonald

Or we're going to like, reflect back to the other person that we don't know them as well as we feel like we're supposed to.

Effy

Right? Yeah, yes, yes. Yeah. And then they might be offended. And yeah. Yeah. Makes like my logical, naturally curious mind. And myself. Why would you ask, then I then I sort of reflect on the times I'm sitting in front of couples or, or more polls, and I see them work things out. And I'm like, Oh, okay. Like, it gets scary. Yeah, when we have conversations, okay, let's explore sexuality. And you know, it's exciting at first. And then as things are, like, coming out, I can see like, Oh, I didn't know that about you. And then like these words, that mean, because what does that mean? What does that mean, for for me? What does that make? Is that what you're thinking when we heard that it just opens up all these things, initially is exciting, it gets scary. And then it really it often. That's the trend that I see that it regulates and then they can really embody curiosity, because a part of the work is creating a safe space for those things to be okay. Right. So the work that I do is, okay, it's gonna get scary. But you know, we have this containers going to be okay. Yeah. And they get through that now they can really enjoy being curious. But I think that's the kind of tends to be the trend that I see a lot. Yeah, I've

MC McDonald

been thinking so much about fear recently. And the this idea that like we are instant response to fear is avoidance, but how healing and how much growth there is when we can lean into the fear instead. And I know that sounds really trite. But I think it there's this conception and Peter Levine's work, he's he's the founder of somatic experiencing therapy. And he, he talks about Pendulo ation, where he's like, the only way through the trauma is through the trauma, but we can't just blast right through it, you have to kind of come into the fear and come back out of it, and then come into the fear and come back out of it. And every time you do that, you're providing your nervous system an opportunity to recalibrate, oh, this is what it's like to toggle on and off. Okay, this is what it's like to go into fear. And then, and so the result is that you have a more robust, resilient nervous system as well as healing. And I think what you that just reminded me of that, when you were talking about that, you know, when you're working with clients is that the result is that like, yes, it's scary. And that brings a lot of discomfort. But the result is that you're going to have healing in your individual nervous systems, and then also in the relationship construct as well.

Effy

Yes, yeah, absolutely. And for my own personal journey with the healing, and I've read Peter Levine's work as well. And I do believe that and I would love you your thoughts on this as well. My belief is that trauma treatment and healing requires top down and bottom up approaches, like we can talk about it all day long. At some point, we have to deal with the body we have to have a somatic approach, whether that is somatic experiencing, whether it's dance movement therapy, whether it's you know, something that involves the body whatever makes sense and calls and speaks to the person but I think it's really important to do that physical work as well.

MC McDonald

Hopefully Yeah, and I think that gets very we live in a very like the you know, the seat of the self is the is the mind and so we dismissed the body and one of actually that's kind of the reason that I got into phenomenology was because some of the thinkers in phenomenology take a critical stance of psychology of you know, back in the 1940s saying that like the bodies along for the ride like we are embodied beings and what that means is that yes, we can talk about the brain as an individual thing but like any experience that you have is a body of experience sure and so to to ignore that part of of yourself while you're doing anything but especially healing is does like doesn't make any sense.

Effy

Sure. Yeah. And some of the ways that I've I've integrated that information in my own healing is I do a lot of somatic work both intentional somatic word for healing but also what dancer you know, I grew up like doing sports and something that I that pendulum motion, you can do that in just simply working out. Yeah, it's just push Bring yourself in that 1% more at the end, because you do have it. Yeah, we are designed to like hold it back, just in case. But if you can, like mentally and physically push that 1% Every time, it is a type of pendulum motion that you're doing within your body and your body, it's sometimes easier because simpler, it's simpler to Hold that plank for another 10 seconds, then trying to hold bunch of concepts and stories and like seeing things together in your head to then have that impact on your nervous system and to catch it. I think that can be complicated. If your story is complicated and narrow, and everything else. But 10 seconds more on a plank is just a simple goal. You don't have to think about story, right? You just had to breathe and push and just like watch that clock for another 10 seconds.

MC McDonald

Right? And then get that empowerment of right. I did it. Yeah. Right.

Effy

And the nervous system is doing that work again, is doing the pendulum motion. It is saying, Look, nobody died, we didn't die. We push that down. You know that 10 seconds. Keep doing that. And I think just as not even to get fit just as like a healing modality for your nervous system. I think it works.

MC McDonald

Yes, fully, fully, fully. I totally agree. Beautiful.

Effy

MC, thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here today and sharing your wisdom and all your knowledge about trauma. I really, really appreciate it. So thank you.

MC McDonald

Oh, thank you so much. This was lovely. I'm happy to come back anytime. Thank you.

Effy

In addition to her academic work, Dr. Mc is a life coach specializing in trauma. You can connect with her by jumping on Instagram or Tiktok at MC dot PhD, and you can get her book unbroken the trauma responses never wrong at the curious Fox bookshop at we are curious fox.com forward slash bookshop. The easiest way to listen to more episodes on broader ways of looking at trauma, its impact on sexuality and relationships, and discovering different modalities of treatment is the checkout the new episode dropped email from curious Fox in your inbox. While you'll find show notes, links mentioned on the show, along with other episodes, suggestions that we think you would love. If you're not getting those emails, you are missing out. So jump on our website, we are curious foxes.com and sign up to the newsletter. And of course while you're there, check out the blog posts and resources and reading lists, recommendations and more. You can weigh in on this topic or connect with other foxy listeners by heading to Facebook and joining our Facebook group at we are curious foxes. Please share our podcast with a friend who you think would benefit from hearing it. Quickly read the show, leave a comment and subscribe on Apple podcasts. Or follow us on Spotify, or connect with the show. However it makes sense on your favorite podcast app. This will take a few seconds of your time and will have a big impact on us. To support the show. Join us on Patreon where you can find mini episodes, podcast extras, and over 50 videos from educator led workshops. Go to patreon.com forward slash we are curious foxes. And let us know that you're listening by sharing a comment story or a question by emailing us or sending us a voice memoEffy Blue to listening and we are curious voxels.com This episode is produced by Effy Blue, with help from Yağmur Erkişi our editor is Nina Pollack, who stands with us in support week after week. Our intro music is composed by dev Saha. We are so grateful for their work, and we're grateful to you for listening. As always, stay curious friends. Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.

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