Ep 130: Madonna Whore Complex, Arts and Men

Art by @pachutorresart

What is the Madonna-whore complex? Why has this caricature pit women against each other? How can we disrupt the good girl/ bad girl narrative that impacts the way we see and are seen?

Inspired by a story shared by our Assistant Producer, Effy and Jacqueline unpack why some men don’t feel like they can get freaky with their girlfriends/fiancés/wives, and instead seek out adventurous or kinky sex with other women. They discuss how media and art perpetuate the binary way that men see women, women see themselves, and anyone in between is not seen. And they dig up images of women that transcend this dichotomy and suggest how we can change the noise, to honor the multiplicity of all humans.

To find more about Effy Blue and Jacqueline Misla, follow them at @wearecuriousfoxes, @coacheffyblue, and @jacquelinemisla 
on Instagram.

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TRANSCRIPT:

Effy

Welcome to the Curious Fox podcast, for those challenging the status quo in love, sex, and relationships. My name is Effy Blue.

Jacqueline

And I'm Jacqueline Misla. And this week, we're talking about the Madonna whore complex, and how it affects our lives today. So this started at a weekly meeting that we were having weekly team meeting and our assistant producer and content creator was sharing a story about a conversation that she was in with her boyfriend and some of his friends. And apparently, somehow the conversation led to blow jobs as Converse conversations.

And one of his friends was talking about how he and his girlfriend at some point, you know, we're moving towards the escalator of engagement, they're gonna be engaged at some point soon. And so as a result of that, he can no longer accept blue jobs from her. Right, because that is not aligned with who she is now in his life.

Effy

And ever, by the way, right then,

Jacqueline

right ever in the future. That's it. Right. We've they've crossed that line now. No, it's true. And so, you know, our assistant producer then, of course, pointed out that that probably means that she now can't receive counseling as as well, right? Like it was off the table for him, it's probably off the table for her. But what was implied was that nothing but missionary sex is acceptable for them moving forward. And it was implied that he's actually going to continue to get blowjobs he just can't get them from her anymore.

Effy

Right? Right. In his head, no woman of Good Standing would be available for blow jobs, I shouldn't be giving blowjobs nevermind them would be away but should be giving blowjobs and that he would not marry a woman that it wasn't of good standing. Therefore, his wife is not the person that he would get low dose from, obviously, right, the way it was present. Right, right. And then, you know, young was beyond was been working with us for a long time. So her mind was officially blown that that's what she was hearing, she came running to us to tell us guess what I heard?

Jacqueline

Right? Because they're not in an open relationship. He wasn't like, I'm gonna get this here and get some there. That's not the situation. But he didn't say he wasn't gonna get blowjobs. Right. Not from his soon to be fiance. Exactly. And actually, so that and that made me think of a very different scenario. I remember at some point, having a conversation with my partner. And we were talking about playing King and such. And she said something like, I respect you too much to spit in your mouth. Now, let me just note that that's that that's actually okay with me, like, that's her kink, not mine, but purely out of principle, till I was annoyed. You should be able to spit on me anytime, you know, I actually don't really want that. Like, I'm fine with the fact that that's not now into in our, in our, like repertoire of activities, but purely based on principle. I was annoyed that had been she respects me too much.

Effy

Right? Right. That your sexual expression is somehow tangled up with your moral upstanding in the in the world and that she would somehow lose respect if she was to spit on spit on you. Yeah, rejecting that on principle, obviously.

Jacqueline

And you know, not to put you too much into my world of what happened that's happened in my house before. So if that's happened on our plate, do not respect me at that point. Like I think that's also where my mind went to. I was like, but that's happened in the past. So what was going on? There was a line by which you were like, well, now. Now, I really respect you.

Effy

Right now I know. No, that's okay. So these things are out in the world. And as we were talking about them, we realize that what's at play here is what Freud I have good friend Freud. coined as the mood Donner horror complex, the Madonna whore complex. Where is it? Where does it come from? Most people have heard it right, we've heard we all have kind of an idea of the word the Madonna whore complexes is essentially a dichotomy that forces women to be either sexually innocent good woman who's above sin and desire, or swinging hard the other way, a promiscuous bad woman who's desired but not respected. You get spit on Jackie, essentially. Just letting you know. And another way to look at it is Freud also talks about men's in the ability to maintain sexual arousal within a committed loving relationship, right? He wrote, always such men love, they have no desire, where they have desire, they cannot love.

Jacqueline

That sounds like poetry when you say it now I know.

Effy

Right? But it's like, it's like a frivolous, right? And essentially, what essentially what Ford was saying is that men see their wives as their mothers. And because they see them, they associate them with their mothers, they can't get into an erotic space with their wives, right? Which is the right thing to do. If you think of your wife as your mother, you shouldn't fuck her. That's right. The problem is not that the problem is that you're seeing you're, you're seeing your wife as your mother. That is the problem. And of course, Freud would think that way that was where his head was at. So I get that. But this idea of the Madonna whore dichotomy has been around for a long time, way before Freud was getting all high up in his cocaine and thinking about the Oedipus complex. This was happening. The Madonna whore dichotomy has been a big part of the Abrahamic religions and mythology. The most prolific personification of the Madonna whore, are of course, the to Mary's, Virgin Mary, literally Madonna herself, oh, and Mary Magdalene, the elusive bad bitch of the Bible.

Jacqueline

Yeah. Meanwhile, research has have realized that Mary Magdalene has been associated with the whore, the prostitute who washed Jesus's feet and the adulterous who was caught in the midst of adultery. But there was actually nothing that connects these women to each other. But somehow that Mary has taken on everything and anything. And some folks think it's because she was part of his, his crew, she hung out with him and the apostle, she's actually named more times and the apostles in the Bible. And so I'm sure that some men read that and was like, now what would she be doing with that group of men? Clearly, they did not respect her opinion. Clearly, she was not a thought partner of Jesus. She must have been a whore. That really must have been the reason why she was there.

Effy

Right? So that's where she gets she gets the she gets the whore and Virgin Mary gets the Madonna. Oh, so this is you know, we think okay, yeah, this was a thing and all sounds kind of cool, but RK archaic at the same time. But then, is it because we heard this conversation from our assistant producer four days ago?

Jacqueline

Exactly, exactly. And have experienced it. I mean, yeah, this is something that we are feeling that there is this, you know, the patriarchal conservative systems have been designed, as we all know, to oppress women with Madonna's and horse right to objectify to idealize to de personalize. And so then it causes disconnection there, there are unrealistic expectations that show up that then lead to feeling personally dissatisfied, feeling dissatisfied in your relationship, because they're just these caricatures that we are expected to play, and that we reinforce with each other men and women alike. I want to put that out there. This is yes, it's a patriarchal system, but we are all buying into those archetypes.

Effy

Absolutely. And we've actually are familiar with this dynamic and we've heard it called different names, right? But a rose by another name would smell as sweet right? So we've heard of it and good girl, bad girl wife, Mistress, the angel and the siren rate. And we've even had people personify this idea of the Madonna and the horror, right? Jackie Kennedy and Marilyn Monroe, you know, like that's a that's a big thing.

Jacqueline

Yeah. And we just were having a conversation with Linda Collins for an upcoming episode. She's an author and educator. And she was talking to us about the mammy Jezebel labels, which again, within the black community represent the same archetypes of either your like mom or you're promiscuous and wild. Right,

Effy

exactly, exactly. And both of those extremes the binary, right, puts women in boxes like tight, tight. boxes, right? So with the Madonna, you're getting this lovable admirer Bible but not desirable women that have no desire, right? She can't want sex you can't be touched. She's kind of often portrayed as like this angelic being that can never do anything wrong on a pedestal. Right? There's one but right

Jacqueline

cannot either right be desired nor can she have desires. Exactly. She has to be above all of those things above the flesh above want. Right?

Effy

Exactly. Which is somewhat of a precarious place to be right. It's one of the struggles with the Madonna side of the Madonna whore. And we'll, we'll get into that in a minute. And

Jacqueline

I'm just gonna jump in and say, since we're talking about the Bible, that even in the first portrayal of a woman, right, if we're looking at Adam and Eve back in the day, what brought her down was her curiosity and her hunger. Exactly. She wasn't curious, if she didn't want to eat that, then she wouldn't, we'll be fine. Now women, for the rest of our lives are doomed with menstrual cramps, and birth that is difficult and painful. Because one of our own at some point, had the desire to have information and hunger. And how dare she?

Effy

How dare she cursed us all. Parsifal. Exactly. And on the horse side, right? You get these like desired creatures with a parent agency and freedom. But always at a cost, right? She doesn't get to. The horse doesn't get to have any option but to be desired, right? She gets to be shields em sexualized and fantasize and objectified. And she doesn't get saying that at all. And even though she has her desires, as a result, she doesn't get respect, right? And even though she can pursue sex, she doesn't have an option not to pursue sex. And that's the book she gets to put it.

Jacqueline

Yes, there's the girl who has to stay home on Friday night and doesn't get to hang out with anybody. And the girl who's out with the guy's been

Effy

snuck out of the window. He's actually doing guys

Jacqueline

more. Exactly. Those are the two those are that's what we have to choose. Yeah, at home studying or outside of windows with our boobs hanging out. Those are the two options that we're good at.

Effy

And the Madonna and the horror is being used in stock narratives in mediocre TV and movies for a long time right? You have your like, your common redemption story where the with a whore is favorited by a man and get saved and is allowed to join civilized society, right? We have the classic pretty woman, right? Then we have the Savior narrative where Madonna saves the man from the darkness, right? That's also prelim, which

Jacqueline

I think I was gonna say it's actually also pretty women. Right? Right. She, she like shows up throughout the course of the movie, we see her transform from horror to Madonna. And really, actually, we know that she was a Madonna in horse clothing. She was literally she pulled off that like short wig. And we were like, Wait a minute. You're not a whore. You're actually a Madonna all along. And then she gets to save Richard Gere now, and at the end, we realize that he was the one who needed saving all that time.

Effy

Exactly. And she needed to be saved by a man to then take her place in this pedestal as the Madonna today save the guy, right? And surprisingly, it's all about the guy. Surprising.

Jacqueline

She can't become his wife and be saved and go into a limousine if she's still whore. Right had to have seen the progression, the literal going shopping and putting on respectable clothes progression of her from horror to Madonna, in order for her to have that happy ending.

Effy

Exactly. Another stuck narrative is the fall when the Madonna falls from grace because of a man, of course. And that for me, my favorite full narrative is the harlequin. She goes from the sweet noni lab rat, to Harlequin, the bad bitch, thanks to Joker and his mean partnership.

Jacqueline

Yeah. And then the last one is the dooming the the woman who takes the man down. So that was the man taking the woman down but like every double Oh, seven femme fatale that we've ever seen. There are women who use their sexual powers in order to take down men.

Effy

Exactly. I mean, you know, in all these talk narratives, which are used over and over and over again across, you know, endless mediocre TV and movie content out there. All works from this idea that the woman can only really be these two things which is this reductive, two dimensional caricatures of existence. And that really, really serve the narrative serve the storyline for men's development who get a journey, who often get the journey in the movie, whereas the women either get to swing hard from one to the other, or get to stay as they are, and don't really have any kind of a journey of their own. Mm hmm.

Jacqueline

No, I think it's true. I think it's true. You know, thinking you and I, before this, we're talking about okay, where do we see this in movies? Pretty Woman. Absolutely true. You actually mentioned to me which made sense to me Sex in the City.

Effy

Yay. Where's the storyline with Charlotte and Trey, and the porn? Do you remember that line?

Jacqueline

Yes. Because she thinks that they're gonna have sex. They haven't had sex up into marriage. She's worried. Finally they get married. He still can't. And the solution at the end of it is that he is attracted to the women in his porn magazines, but can't see her Cantus respect her and see her that Yeah, right. She

Effy

catches him. She catches them making off the porn. She tries to like, seduce him wearing like sexy lingerie and he shuts her down. Like, no, you're my wife. You can't be like that. Right? And then eventually, I think they do therapy and all that kind of stuff. But essentially, I mean, I actually thought it was a really good storyline, because it's just stares at this thing in the face of men who can't, who can't wrap their heads around the duality or the multiplicity in a woman, even the woman that you married and you're supposed to be in love with, you know, and I think eventually, that episodes and something like Charlotte using wedding pictures as a way to like a collage and the porn magazine and puts her face on all like the sexy pictures. And he somehow so it's somehow helps him like, integrate, like 60 Charlotte. Good girl, Charlotte.

Jacqueline

Exactly. All the pictures that she did not like from her wedding day, she cut out the faces and put those phrases on. For magazines. Yes. So there's that. I mean, there's Handmaid's Tale, which is quite literally the separation between the wife and the whore. And what makes it actually more complicated is that the horse is the mom, but not really the mom. Like she has to have the sex and like produce the child, but she's

Effy

had the child. Right, exactly. He's like the breeder,

Jacqueline

right, but she's not the mother. Those are two different things, right? And so there's like, you can see it in their colors and their style. Like they're just separated very differently. And then there's some places where there's more complexity. Yeah. And you mentioned to me which I had never thought about this before. Hunchback of Notre DOM

Effy

by Disney, not the original script, but Disney Disney did a good one good job of that, where you actually see the three states of Esmeralda you see Esmeralda as a Madonna because quasi man Cosmo idealizes her and it's like, sees her in this holy light and like falls in love with her smile, but essentially objectifies her and puts her on a pedestal. And then you see her also from the I O of follow the bad guy right where he's like, jealous of her and like the spices are but also like, desires her and like fetishizing her and eroticized her so like you see, that's why you see the whole like he he's really mean to her and gets really up close and personal. But then like he dreams of like smelling her skin. So you see her both like seen as the core and the Madonna. And then you see Phoebus Captain Phoebus who works for furlough, you just have to watch the watch the animation to keep up with this. But he sees her as a peer and a friend and you see this relationship they have that kind of starts with curiosity and they get to know each other and they spend good quality time and you see her from his eyes, which is this more multi dimensional person that is like spiritual and kind and funny, right? And he really likes that and Caesars appear and a friend. So you see in one movie, these three different angles that for some reason can't coexist, by the way, right? It's split into three different men's gaze. And you know, Disney is trying their best at that time. The good thing is in the conclusion that she has Melda falls in love with Phoebus Ray doesn't fall in love with that Cosmo the idealized version or given to follow but ends up falling in love with with Phoebus who actually does see you as a friend and appear.

Jacqueline

Yeah, so that works out there. I think you and I were talking about another place where it did not work out so well. And that is a movie that I love, which is black swan. And so you have white swan, right. She is dedicated and and responsible and hard working and shows good character all of those things. Who throughout the course of the movie turns into Black Swan, right who is sexy and takes what she wants and is passionate. But she cannot contain both right so she eventually has to die. Right? Right, right. Be both the white and black swan, one body

Effy

Absolutely. I love that storyline. I love that storyline because it just comes. Just it has this like amazing nuance where exactly she actually can't win right as a black as the white swan, she also gets cold, uptight and frigid. Right? So she can't, she can't really win and as a white swan, and because he suppresses all the things to be the white swan, he splits and then has this like Black Swan side, which he's trying to control, right. And because she can't be both of those things, she can only be two things separately, the idea is that she's supposed to stretch to then contain these two parts that are separate. So she is the one that has the stretch to try to, to contain those two parts of her that don't want anything to do with each other, which causes her to go crazy and die. Right? Which kind of is true. And we saw that in real life with Britney Spears. Right? This idea of she was like the sweet angel. You know the good goal with the purity ring like the whole year, you know, the whole you know, coming from the Disney the Disney Club, right?

Jacqueline

Yeah, yeah, the Mickey Mouse Club with this name, right? The Mickey Mouse

Effy

Club, even then, like she was she had to walk this really tight rope as like, being this like Virgin 60 Virgin, which is a mind sock. Yes. And the Catholic school girl.

Jacqueline

Exactly. I was just gonna say that they played into that beautifully with the Catholic school your outfit? Because the Catholic school girl is both like, Oh, I'm religious. And I'm pious. But I'm also a little sexy and dangerous. Like that is the classic imagery of trying to contain both,

Effy

I think exactly, exactly. And she was then you know, and then anything that she did, that was it was okay for her to be sexy on stage. But if she showed any kind of sexual interest in anything, then she was like, immediately shut down immediately told she was bad. All that drama with Justin Timberlake, right. So that was like Madonna. Like, she was like the Madonna, under pressure of this, like mindfuck that she had to be because of her marketing. She then swung hard the other way and ends up being deemed as this like, whore. Terrible person, bad mother, you know, representing this, like the dark side again that she had, she was so split in them. eyes of society. She kind of broke you know, she she also couldn't balance those two things that could only be addressed the separate like she just couldn't see a version of herself that was integrated because all that was projected to her with these two extreme sides. Yeah. And she like the Black Swan broke in real life, like, her psyche broke and we saw her suffer and go into this like crazy conservatorship, all that kind of stuff. Because of this because she was she had to grow to somehow keep all that thing together. And she couldn't, understandably so.

Jacqueline

Yeah. And swung back and forth again. Right. Right. So she went from Virgin to cheating on Justin Timberlake. Right. And that's terrible. And then in that bad phase, then we see her with with many men, and then she like, becomes a careless mom. Then now we see her from careless Mom, we see her as suppressed daughter, right? She has swung back where we're like, oh, no, actually, we needed we were we were pushing her site, we need to protect her. And so she just can't see your point. She can't like live in both. She we have to either idealize her or we have to punish her.

Effy

Exactly, exactly. And I think the important piece is this right? That even though when we allow those two things do exist in women, they're not integrated. They somehow have to be split, right. Black Swan, white swan, right. And then if you look at an art, it's like darkness light. It's always put in contrast, we don't get the integrated version, where you do get through the Black Swan and the white swan. But it's integrated in such a way that it feels whole that you don't have to split your psyche to make room for this things that you can be hold and be all those things at the same time.

Jacqueline

Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. We'll put I'll put this in the show notes. A link to Titans sacred and profane love, is that imagery. On one side, you have the woman in in blue, light blue, and she's, you know, angelic and whole and wholesome. And on the other side, you have the half naked woman with her like red shawl going off of her body. Right. And it's exactly it's either one or the other. And that does not translate to men. I mean, certainly in media, right. I think you mentioned this before. Number one, they get more airtime, right? They get to lead the storyline so we get to see their complexity. We introduced the supporting characters they don't have the same kind of complex personalities. So we see men as multi-dimensional There are the bad boys who are you know, coveted, but the bad boy we see has a journey. At some point we get to see If the bad boy is really sensitive, he you know, his dad died. And his mom laughed. And he grew up poor, right. And so in the journey, a probably a woman facilitates the journey for him to go from bad boy to really someone who is complex and worthy of love. And then on the other side of it, you have the best friend character, right? So you have the guy who's like the best friend, we don't seem as sexy or desirable. But then again, he also has a journey, also likely facilitated by a woman where he becomes confident because he finds the job that he loves, where he learns to speak up for himself. And then by the end, we see him as both the best friend and is really sexy and cute in a way we didn't notice before. And so the guys are allowed to have a journey and they're allowed to be both things. And

Effy

we're not, we're not or when we are we used

Jacqueline

to die or go insane. goes.

Effy

There's no happy endings to those who get to be the both there are no happy endings, right? thing. You get to be both but it comes at a cost.

Jacqueline

I was just waiting Julia Roberts, we see her go through that transition. But she's not both at the end. She's not Hort, she doesn't like stay a prostitute and become his wife. At the end of the movie, she's going to go get go back to school, she's moving out of LA, she's going back like she's like I'm wholesome. Now. My hair is down and flow it I'm no longer wearing that short wig I have now transformed. We're bad boy gets to be bad and sensitive and best friend gets to be kind of nerdy and sexy. They get it all.

Effy

Yes, exactly. And by the way, this this archetype sucks for everyone. And first and foremost, of course, sucks. Sucks for women because it makes us reduced and these characters is caricatures. It sets up the cultural dynamics around how we treat women and how what we expect from relationships and how men viewers how we view each other. Right? It pits us against each other, all that kind of stuff. It strengthened the patriarchy, right, all those shitty things for women. And it's also shooting for men, right? Because men can't hold this idea of having a complex women in their lives, right? They say things like, you know, my wife is not where I get my blow jobs, right? Like it causes disconnection and it causes dissatisfaction. And it is confusing for men as well.

Jacqueline

Yeah, no, I think it's true. And I think what's hard then is in real life, when you try to put the two things together, right you and we find ourselves as women impossible situation where we have to be pure before marriage, then know how to satisfy a man after marriage. And but

Effy

not have fun doing it.

Jacqueline

But also not be I wonder. Exactly, yeah, again, it's like it's like the Goldilocks of fun, like, just enough fun, right? You're not a downer, but also not so much fun that you look like you're enjoying yourself. That would be terrible. Right? You have to be pure, but somehow also have to have a child which would involve sex. Right? So but only probably once, you probably only have sex once to have a baby and you didn't enjoy it even like to do it. Sure. Close your eyes the whole time. And then and now you're so now you don't you don't have sex anymore.

Effy

Exactly. And now you're nothing but a mom, right? You're not even a woman anymore. You're now a mom, which is its own identity that gets like slapped on you. You don't get to choose it. You don't get to choose what mom means. But now you're not even a woman. You're a mom. Yeah,

Jacqueline

no, you're 100% Right. I think what's difficult now is the fact that in our present day, I think the our ideas about feminism have have kind of complicated and flip the switch on that and like flip the script in that we're now feminism I think has been reduced to idolizing the bad girl.

Effy

Yeah, so in wave feminism is all about bad girls.

Jacqueline

Were part of our womanhood we're living our best life which includes being sexually open right we're not like the good girl was not desirable anymore. That's that's a nerdy and docile and they're rude and stuck up and they're not feminist.

Effy

Right and boring right?

Jacqueline

Yes, we have the transition from my Miley Cyrus right who you know was like country sweet loving you know character again on Disney Channel.

Effy

Pure to array purity the purity rings.

Jacqueline

Yeah, all the things right now. She's like dancing on stage little outfits and people are like, wow, we have as I caught the two so we had the two Mary's we have the two gents. Right. We have Jennifer Gardner and Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck, who went with you know, with the with the archetype of the Madonna and now is the archetype archetype of the horror, which I'm not calling Jennifer Lopez or any of these women horrors, but these archetypes that they play. And so, there there is is the pressure to make that transition? And that is, that's just not, that's not something that easily be done.

Effy

Yeah. Or there's like now the pressure to be both right, like Lady in the streets freaking the sheets, right? Yeah, there's that pressure that's going on. Right. And I think that I think the difficulty is, now we just found Hardway in our third wave feminism, where the only way to be a feminist is to be you know, to be rocking your thong sticking out your jeans, and like, having sex with whoever you want, and like flaunting your stuff and defining yourself through your sexuality. Now, yeah, as our listeners know, that's how we roll, right? We're all as your co hosts, right? But that doesn't mean to say that is the only way to be right. It doesn't mean that just because you're not out there talking about sex every single day of your life and flaunting your stuff. It doesn't mean you're not a feminist, right? The only way to be a woman is not to not through sexuality, which I think is is important because you still defining womanhood and feminism, yes, through the male gaze, as owning something that they see, which is this hyper sexualized version of, of womanhood. And sure, we're owning it now. And it's now ours. But now we're saying it's almost mandatory if you really want to be a feminist woman. So I think it's, it's still not quite settled, like, we still haven't figured out a way to bust this Madonna whore dichotomy that we have to deal with and still do to this day through society, cultural arts movies, it's still that it's so prolific. And even though we are owning it, I don't think we've solved it.

Jacqueline

And I even gonna say, I think that the fact that we think that we're owning it is also something that still feels questionable to me, because at the end of the day, it still is in relation to the male gaze. Yeah, right. So we're so so these archetypes are all in relation to men, they pit women against each other because it's about attracting, keeping, fighting for pleasing a man. And men and patriarchy can either give you or strip you of your title. It's why women who are sexually assaulted sometimes do not want to tell people because they believe that they are going to be seen differently, they were assaulted, are going to be seen now as a horror versus a Madonna because of the act of somebody else. And so this title gets stripped onto them. So even though we think now you know, we're we're taking it back and we're owning it. It's it's just so muddled up in this unimaginable box that I don't know, I don't know how we can own something that that never belong to us. That was handed to

Effy

us. Exactly. And I think even even what is sexy is always through the male gaze, right? Like unless you're entrenched resolving, like queer mediums, right? Queer art, queer movies, queer literature, unless you you specifically do that you go and seek those views of women out and watch them and absorb them and observe them and absorb them. Everything that you see about woman Being sexy is through the male gaze. We don't see a version of sexy for women through the female gaze, right? There's no such thing. There's no, there's no representation of female gaze. Definitely not a mainstream media, right? And that sexy that we're owning, it's not really our sexy, it's what we've been told men find sexy. So you to your point? Absolutely. Are we owning it? Sure, well, what are we owning isn't really ours, or just something that's just like represented to us that we're somehow trying to make do and live up to?

Jacqueline

Yeah, I was thinking about this, as we were preparing for this conversation thinking about does how does this show up within queer spaces? Because in the space where, for example, and lesbian relationship, right, if to women, there should be no male gaze present in that particular space. But it's I mean, it's insidious, and it still shows up. And so while we don't have necessarily that I can think of, and please queer folk, right in if there's some things that I'm missing, but I don't think that we have the same kind of labels within the queer community around like, there is the woman who is this or the woman who is that, but it does show up, I think, in the kind of the Butch femme kind of situation, and that I've talked to other women who, you know, kind of identify as femme, if you will. And we've talked about the fact that we are not trying to attract a man and yet, there is still a consciousness that is in our mind out when we're walking in the world of whether or not a man is looking at us, right? Like our definition of what is attractive has been carved out to us by patriarchy and the male gaze, and similarly, my wife who identifies as a dyke and Butch did not think of herself as beautiful. She thought of herself as having swag. You know what I mean? Being sexy, but not beautiful, not pretty, because those words didn't associate with her in it. It took a journey for her to get there. And so even within queer spaces, I think that we should certainly unwrap indulge ourselves in queer language and media and art and all those things, because I think it'll help us unlearn some stuff. But even in those spaces, this has seeped in.

Effy

Sure, yeah. Womanhood is defined by men this truth.

Jacqueline

And that's the end of the podcast.

Effy

Thanks for coming. In, especially when it comes to sexuality like women, I think womanhood is defined by men. So that's I think I'm going to stand by that statement. But more so specifically, women's sexuality is defined and played out by men.

Jacqueline

Yeah, I think that's right. And, you know, I think it's important to say this is not this is not any male bashing. This is not we're not if you're listening, and you're taking personal expense, you should not this is a societal thing. This is embedded in the way that we see each other, and women contribute to it. I think, you know, if we move to a place of well, what can we do about it? So we know this exists? So what what can we now do? I think part of that

Effy

is other than being on a podcast, right? Exactly. Which I think everyone

Jacqueline

should get a podcast.

Effy

bitching about it? That's exactly.

Jacqueline

Right, exactly. But I do think that it is about trying to figure out what our role isn't as right, we did not create it. But we do perpetuate it. I think that it in the way that we see ourselves or our partners or our relationships, you've talked about the fact that this is this is one reason why people want to open up the relationship is because they don't necessarily see their partner as somebody who they can do both with and so they want to, you know, have their, their anchor, partner, core partner, primary partner with their wife, but then also want to have a relationship on the side with the person who they can get blowjobs from

Effy

anxiety, be a freaking sheets with somebody else. Listen, I mean, we make we make fun of Freud. And I know I make it my personal business to make fun of Freud on daily basis if I can. But what he's saying about, you know, men can't reconcile their wives from their mothers thing is, is true. It's not a true statement for everyone. But I have definitely seen that dynamic. In my practice. I've also definitely seen men struggle to come out to their wives about their kinks, their fetishes, or deep dark desires, and choosing to try to navigate, which I think is a much harder conversation and transition their relationship into an open relationship. So they can indulge those desires and fetishes, isn't fetishism and kings, they were willing to have much more difficult conversations about open relationships, transition the relationship into an open relationship, then turn to their wives or their primary partners and say, hey, I want you to spit in my mouth. And I will respect and respect me afterwards.

Jacqueline

Yes, yeah. And, you know, it leads to like a meta more tension. And it's again, that sense of like, women can be pitted against each other. Because now, you know, if that's the case of you, if I feel like you're, you're getting something else from that person, and you know, the classic like home wreckers stereotype, like a woman who's going to use her sexual prowess to, like, take everything from under my feet. Like, I think that those kinds of things add to that, and and, you know, we talked about in episode 126, rest and reason and flirt and fuck that you can have both in relationship, you can't have it at the exact same time. But you can run both things, all of the things can exist in one person, they can exist in one relationship, it is indeed possible.

Effy

Yes, exactly. Exactly. I think you just have to make room for it. And you have to make it integrated. And as a part of the whole thing. I would say the number one struggle with metaphors, especially at the beginning of people's non monogamous journeys, is that insidious narrative we've internalized, that tells us that other women are there to get us, right. And even if you think about that, even if you just, let's just look at that, right? Even in that dynamic, what you're doing is you're giving your partner a get out of jail card by saying, Oh, no, it's not you. It's not your decisions. It's this other woman that's coming in from the outside, and you're going to wreck our home and steal you. Which you're like, you're taking the power, you're saying no, no, it's okay. It's not you. It's nothing to do with this month, but your your integrity, your decisions, how you choose to show up at home or with a new partner. We're not even letting men have any responsibility. We're going directly to the other woman and seeing them as a threat and seeing them as the homewrecker, right. That narrative is so ingrained and so insidiously in our subconscious. We don't turn to our partner and say, Hey, like, I'm okay with us having other relationship. And we also have to nourish this relationship that we have, and this is what it looks like. Right? We immediately get defensive with this other person that we know often very little about.

Jacqueline

Yeah. Yeah, I think again, I think the antidote to that is just allowing for there to be complexity like telling, telling more complex story Raise I do think that that exists in our like, I think you said there are, you know, yeah, I think that there are films and things that you know, one of the ones ocean eight was one that was on my mind, right where it's like all female characters who are like complex, we get to see their journey, we get to see them both as good and bad and on all the things in between. So that's good,

Effy

right? But they could only manage eight of those, we couldn't have 12 or 13 women, only eight just couldn't make we just couldn't make a full deck like that was not that's not gonna happen. Eight badass, which is.

Of course less women do exactly the same amount of work. The 13 people, and I think more money is so representative of real life on reflection, I think

Jacqueline

is genius. That's amazing. That's amazing. You know, honestly, I think that the Kardashians are good Flexity I think that they are, you know, lawyers and business owners and in bikinis in many ways. I think that they are kind of showcasing being multi-dimensional that they are business savvy, and they're sexy, and their moms and they're hardworking. And they're social, you know, like, yeah, to say that, but I really do think that it is an example of, of illustrating that women can be all

Effy

the things. Exactly. I think that's why they're so divisive. I 100% agree with you. I don't follow them. Of course, I'm aware of them because I live on planet Earth, right? I can't be not. They are all those things. And I think they're also a divisive bunch, right? People either love them or hate them. If you're into them, you're into them. You either love them, you hate them, they think it is because of this multi dimensional way that they operate. Like they don't fit into the boxes that that society wants them to. So they end up being divisive. And they persevere regardless, right. So I think it's fair to say like, you don't have to love the Kardashians to appreciate that they challenge the status quo of being a woman, especially a sexy woman, like, you know, Kim, obviously, like gets to have a law degree while posing on Instagram with boobs out and a little song Good for her. Right, like Good for her. She's doing it. So yeah, double thumbs up for the conditions. And of course, I have to say, my favorite, all time favorite TV that does nothing but amazing justice for women, women female characters, is avatar, Legend of Korra. I have to say, if you haven't watched it, regardless of your age, especially if you have girls, but also if you have boys, they can see the multi dimensional characters. There are so many amazing female characters in that show that are written in so much nuance that have nothing to do with their womanhood. Like this is like the fact that they're a woman is only one aspect. And sometimes it's not even significant that they are they are just who they are, and they get on with it. So I do think avatar Legend of Korra is probably one of the most multi dimensional female characters on screen I've ever seen. By the way, if you can trump that, I would love to hear that. So please write and tell me and like Effie Legend of Korra I get it. But how about this, I will totally hear you.

Jacqueline

I think those kinds of things open the door to I mean, just complexity even beyond the binary gender, like just being able to see what complex humanity looks like. So if you identify as non binary, if you're trans, if you're sis, but just seeing that you don't have to pick Are you even in the binaries? We're trying to break that open. And hopefully that gives permission and inspiration to folks who don't see themselves in the binary to say, yes, you can be more complex in that. And I think I mean, there were plenty of complex female characters. You know, we talked about you know, we're reminiscing and talking about TV and movies. fleabag.

Effy

Thank you, thank you. Okay.

Jacqueline

We have Russian doll. Also kind of complex characters Broad City, which I love.

Effy

Hilarious, hilarious. Another one of my favorites, Law and Order SVU Olivia Benson 2520 for almost 30 years on the 30 years, 30 years, almost three decades on screen. And she is like one of the most multi dimensional female characters that's been persisting on TV for such a long time. I'm a fan. She's great.

Jacqueline

We should watch more of those things, watch less of the things that create the stereotypes and archetypes, watch more of these kinds of complex characters. And then I think for me personally, too, this is about living personally, in a space where you invite in complexity, right, personally and how you show up in spaces, personally around how you talk about and think about people like women, we need to stop calling each other slots and whores or prudes and uptight we need to stop doing it. like we are perpetuating these things. And so we need to show up as complex and how we show up in the world and give space for other women to do the same.

Effy

Exactly, exactly. And honor that honor. Like, if you're gonna call somebody a whore or a prude, do that from a place of like honoring them, and that they actually, like a congratulate like, yeah, exactly. Like, that's how you roll. I accept that. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I think it's also just overall important to normalize sexual expression for everybody. But let's just talk about women because we are talking about Madonna whore complex, but normalized sexual expression, and separated from your character and your moral standing, you can't be that just because you have a lot of sex, therefore, you're a bad person, right? You get to have as much sex as you want. And you get to give as many blowjobs as you want. And you get to be a good person, you get to have the character that you do. And those things are mutually exclusive for one another. Anything that is really important,

Jacqueline

I agree. And again, I think that that goes back to being able to have some representation around that to show that that you can be have good character, and be sexually expressive. I think, again, showing that to yourself, to your partner, to your kids, like showing, and you don't have to show boobs out unless you're naked Mom, if you want to talk, we know this in the show notes, dude, there's a tick tock about whether or not you're naked mom or not making naked mom. But being able to show the complexity I think in those spaces on your Instagram feeds, whatever it is just kind of illustrating what integration looks like, I think has incredible power. And then showing up from that space men when you're when you're choosing who to date, you know, if you are dating women, appreciating that complexity. And seeking that seeking out true complexity and not trying to box folks in

Effy

exactly approach, approach your data approach the people that you're interested in with to genuine curiosity rather than judgments and labels that you've already concluded on, you know, and this brings us back to where we started. If a woman gives you a blow job when you want one, regardless of who she is, the response is always. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Jacqueline

Thank you. Yeah, but I, you know, so, so appreciation to our assistant producer, who kind of started us off on this rant early a few days ago, and had us thinking about this. But I think for me, you know, it has inspired me this conversation. Number one to consume more media where there is more complex characters and to do have my daughter do the same. And also just continue to be in the intentional struggle and act of showing up as integrated and complex and allowing others to do the same, not not kind of putting people in a box. If you enjoyed this or any of our episodes, then you should find out more about us and get engaged. You can do that a few different ways. First, check us out on our website, on Instagram, and Facebook, all under the same name. We are curious foxes. We have updated our website to make it easier for you to find that blog post and the resources that you are curious about and it is beautiful, just visually beautiful. Just Just go on. We're curious foxes and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. If you find that our episodes are interesting, or funny or helpful, then we ask that you share our podcast with a friend. You can quickly rate the show you can leave a comment you can subscribe on Apple podcast or follow us on Spotify or Stitcher. It will only take a few seconds of your time, but it's gonna have a big impact for us. And if you want to support the show, and you want to continue to indulge your curiosity, and you should be joining us on Patreon. Go to patreon at we're curious boxes and you're going to find many episodes, podcasts extras that we couldn't fit into the show and over 50 videos from educator led workshops. So go on to Patreon. We are curious foxes. And then of course, let us know that you're listening. Let us know if you have a comment or a story a question or an episode idea. You can email us or send us a voice memo to listening and we are curious foxes. Or you can record a question for the show by calling us at 646-450-9079.

Effy

This episode is produced by Effie blue and Jacqueline Muslim with help from Jamar Erica Chu. Our editor is Nina Pollack, who we appreciate in all of our complexity. Our intro music is composed by dev Sahara. We are so grateful for their work, and we're grateful to you for listening as always Stay curious friends. Okie dokie It is that time of the week. Because that's where his his head is. That's where his head is. Sorry, can I still not the mother in the heart it's the wife and the horse because the actually the horse are the mothers because the fact that world Curious Fox podcast is not and will never be the final word on any topic was solely aimed to encourage curiosity and provide a space for exploration through connection and story. We encourage you to listen with an open and curious mind, and we'll look forward to your feedback. Stay curious friends.

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